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Fast Paul
Ape
United Kingdom
885 Posts |
 Posted - 18 January 2008 : 10:28:33 PM
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After a thirteen year old girl helplessly watched her Father, Gary Newlove, get kicked to death the day before their family holiday to Lanzarote, the Governments answer in the wake of this is to say that its time to get tough on selling alcohol....... after introducing 24hr drinking.
His crime was to go outside his front door and confront a pack of feral youths causing trouble.
This vicious assault is becoming an everyday occurance on our streets and those in power have only sound bites to combat this with.
How do we cure this? There is no respect anymore but how do we reverse this problem? It`s been going on for years.
I`ve had first hand experience of this when seven years ago my eldest son, then aged 13 came running into our house petrified.
"Don`t go out there Dad! he`s got a knife,...he`s a nutter! There`s loads of them!"
"Who?" I asked.
"Danny and his gang, he`s 15 and been expelled from school for holding a chisel to the woodwork teachers throat!"
Then it all came out, how he was terrorising the neighbourhood kids, bullying everyone including my son.
Well, I was outside in the blink of an eye to confront this toe-rag, this piece of muck who was tormenting my son, while the wife frantically phoned the police.
This rings a bell with Gary Newlove and my heart goes out to his grieving family.
My tale ended differently, as I am ex-forces I`ve seen a fight or two and one heart punch sent Danny and his knife flying and his gang ran off.
When the Police turned up big hard Danny was crying like a baby (we had words while waiting for them!) but the police took him and his knife away and all he got was a slap on the wrist! Then they cautioned me. I was lucky and it went no further.
Gary Newlove wasn`t so lucky...............
Whats the answer to this feral youth problem??
A Grizzly Bear can run 100 yards in 4.3 seconds...........................so don`t push it!
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scarrow
Forum Admin
397 Posts |
Posted - 19 January 2008 : 10:02:18 AM
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I'm with you on this Paul. 100%
We need a societal overhaul, a complete paradigm change. Tinkering with one little piece of legislation here or there, os for the benefit of the govt only...it makes them look busy. |
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Spartan
Invertebrate
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 19 January 2008 : 10:51:12 AM
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As a teenager myself, I hear alot of these things now a days. Even I have to admit this is becoming an ever growing problem. Once this Polish boy at my school got in a fight, the other boy said he would bring a knife into school tomorrow to 'get him'. To this the Polish kid replied 'fine, i'll bring my gun.' Some people may think that sounds funny, but it's troubling i think, that these 15/16 year olds my age have access to these kinds of weapons.
Drinking: many say this is the problem. However i feel different, like every other teenager, i drink. Not often, and not too much and we have guidlines when we do drink. Only in someones house we know, only have a small amount of people there that we all trust, one person must remain sober to control things if something happens and lastly if we break something we have to pay for it. In all of the times we have done this, nothing bad has happened, we have not turned into violent youths who want to start trouble.
The big problem isn't drink, it's the people themselves. Even when sober they would have probably done that regardless. Drinking doesn't make you kick someone to death.
Go tell the spartans, stranger passing by
the here, obedient to their laws we lie.
King Xerxes demanded that the Spartans lower their arms, to this Leonidas replied "Molon
Labe" Come and get them.
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13776 Posts |
Posted - 19 January 2008 : 11:10:33 AM
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should have hit him harder FP, im well known where i live for not putting up with this type of crap, the local youths hang out outside the local corner shop scaring the ladies who work there and terrorizing people who want to shop, some turn around and dont go in, just the other week i was in the queue and one tried to pick my pocket...i offered to break his had off at the wrist and then drag him home to his parents, he ran out of the shop like a shot, when i turn up they tend to walk out of the way...im not huge, but you have to be confident look them in the eye and never back down....the insane thing is that i have to think like this and do this to get a loaf of bread from the corner shop...i will not let the wife go round there after dark.
and will the government fix this...nope, there is nothing for these kids to do no where to go, people are too scared to open youth clubs etc these days because of the yobs , fear of being sued, all the red tape involved, so we let our kids wander the streets , bored!! what a great society.
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6967 Posts |
Posted - 19 January 2008 : 6:48:37 PM
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The problem is parents and society at large...in a nutshell, all of us.
Hos many times do we see something going on and just walk away? We don't want to get involved, or we might get hurt? Well, this turning a blind eye turns the littlelest monster (aw, isn't he cute?) into a feral youth because his parents don't discipline them, and then society at large puts up with it. By the time this monster is 9, 10, or 11, he/she is totally out of control.
Don't blame the alcohol. It takes the wrong attitude to decide to go out and get totally blitzed. If it wasn't alcohol, it would be something else. The behaviour of yobs is socially acceptable. Any society that thinks it is okay to get blitzed on alcohol on a friday or saturday night, that says "its not my problem" to bad behaviour deserved the youth it gets.
"We are Starfleet officers, weird is part of the job."
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Fast Paul
Ape
United Kingdom
885 Posts |
Posted - 19 January 2008 : 8:00:47 PM
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OK we are all agreed.
Its not alcohol, its lack of respect... or rather lack of fear of being punished. There is no deterrent, no fear.
I look back on my youth and the thought of what Mum or Dad would say/do was a major detterent.
The cain kept me in check to some degree at school, but a letter home and my world ended.
But not with todays youth.....no thats wrong, not with some of todays youth. The vast majority are well behaved young people, a credit to their parents, but the minority are Feral and something needs to be done. Fear is the only answer that I can see, its worked OK for hundreds, ney thousands of years. As soon as it was taken away parts of our society have fallen apart and its going to get worse if nothing is done.
What say you?
A Grizzly Bear can run 100 yards in 4.3 seconds...........................so don`t push it! |
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Spartan
Invertebrate
United Kingdom
140 Posts |
Posted - 19 January 2008 : 8:18:59 PM
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I totally agree. I am currently in my last year of school (my GCSE year) and there are some real idiots in my year who just want to cause trouble and stop people learning.
The stupid thing is, they wont even permanently expell people who will continue to disrupt others. There was one boy in my school who set a toilet alight. They expelled him for this ONLY because he said he would do it again. Another boy stole harmful chemicals from a science lab and threw them at a group of people. He was suspended for 3 days, he still contines to do stupid things like this.
People just are not afraid any more. A parent can't even smack their misbehaving child without people saying it's wrong. I would prefer if the cain or something like this was brought back. That might give people some respect.
Also, more serious crimes like assult and murder, there is no effective deterrent. I feel that Capital punishment should be brought back (we actually did an essay on this for english coursework). People aren't even afriad of prison any more.
It's disgusting
Go tell the spartans, stranger passing by
the here, obedient to their laws we lie.
King Xerxes demanded that the Spartans lower their arms, to this Leonidas replied "Molon
Labe" Come and get them.
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13776 Posts |
Posted - 20 January 2008 : 09:26:44 AM
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quote:
because his parents don't discipline them
have to say ankhsy this is not always the case, as you know i had loads of trouble with my son and there was plenty of discipline, some kids just dont listen, peer groups tend to have more impact, kids tend to spend most of their time with teachers, this is where they should learn some of the fear and respect, but they dont, this is modern society, as both parents now tend to work, and only influence the kids lives for a few hours a day.
i know there are a lot of bad parents out there with bad kids but there also a lot of good parents with bad kids.
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8359 Posts |
Posted - 20 January 2008 : 11:24:21 AM
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We need a small change in the law to make it legal for neighbours to gang up on the scum and thump them without risk of being either sued or arrested. It just means going back to the ancient raising of the Hue And Cry, when anyone who heard it was required to join in the pursuit or disposal of malefactors and would be prosecuted for failure to join in.
We can easily make room in the jails for the thugs apprehended as a result - just bring back hanging and apply it retroactively to all those presently serving "life" for murder.
Cheers
John
Captain, Star Fleet
"to boldly split infinitives that no man (or woman) has split before" |
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Gladius
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2119 Posts |
Posted - 20 January 2008 : 1:40:13 PM
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| You say it as if its so easy John, i doubt many politicians would be in favour of hanging, even though i think it would work myself. |
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Fast Paul
Ape
United Kingdom
885 Posts |
Posted - 20 January 2008 : 6:48:42 PM
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Thats the big problem. The politicians are in the minority on the Capitol Punishment Issue and unfortunately thats not going to change overnight. The bill of human rights is unwanted aswell on a national scale but again the politicians are in favour of it. Personally I believen the human rights bill is a good thing but only if it is watered down a great deal. Abu Hamsa the cleric of hate is hiding behind this bill to stop his extradition to the US.
Its laughable. This bill needs a complete overhaul to suite us as a nation.
A Grizzly Bear can run 100 yards in 4.3 seconds...........................so don`t push it! |
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Stomachus Grossus
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1847 Posts |
Posted - 22 January 2008 : 10:33:54 AM
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The hey and cry John... hmmm i rememebr a while ago when a gang attacked a house because he was a peadiatrictian and they thought he was a peadophile...... vigilanty justice is no better than the scum they are working against at least some of the time.
As a youth in the 1980's i was a very nasty peice of work. I get drunk regulally, got into a whole heap of trouble with the coppers for vandalism, violence, mugging, burgalary, arson you name it i did it. I was the lad out side the cornershop threatening the people going in, bullying the younger kids and being down right horrible. It all changed over night when i was 19.
Moriarty: I see that ten years in Britain have not changed your Imperial Roman outlook, Caesar.
Caesar (G): True, Moriartus, always a Roman eye.
Moriarty: Will you take wine?
Caesar: No thanks, I think I'll have a half of mild and a packet of crisps.
*the Goon Show the history of Plinny the elder |
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Fast Paul
Ape
United Kingdom
885 Posts |
Posted - 22 January 2008 : 8:04:59 PM
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But Strom that dosn`t make it right. People shouldn`t have to put up with that sort of behaviour. What would have changed you as a youth? Would Borstal have made a difference to your attitude back then? Was there something that stopped you and made you think?
A Grizzly Bear can run 100 yards in 4.3 seconds...........................so don`t push it! |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8359 Posts |
Posted - 22 January 2008 : 9:05:52 PM
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Who said anything about vigilante justice, Stom? The hue and cry was simply an acknowledgement that _everyone_ has a responsibility to help in catching the scum and handing them over to justice. Not a way of dishing out on-the-spot hangings, which is what you seem to think. When it was raised all those within earshot were _rquired_ to turn out and help to catch the thief, killer, or other committer of whatever the crime was. Nowadays the system is known as "have-a-go heroes" but the Criminals' Protection Society is more likely to prosecute the heroes than the scum. It's time we changed the justice "system" to recognise that the criminal must be stopped, caught and handed over for actual punishment, not probation, community "service" or an unsupervised ASBO. (By the way, your example was actually a _woman_ not a "he" and _of course_ that attack on her house should also have resulted in a hue and cry against those responsible.) And if you were a nasty piece of work in your teens shouldn't you have been stopped in your tracks by an angry community and handed over to the police? Repentance on finding Christ is all very well, but not much consolation for those you helped terrorise over several years. I have to ask: did you find as many of your previous victims as possible and make restitution for what you stole or destroyed? How many people lost irreplacable things to you, as my own mother did to a little toe-rag who broke into her flat and stole things that had belonged to her own mother or been given to her by her dead husband?
Cheers
John
Captain, Star Fleet
"to boldly split infinitives that no man (or woman) has split before" |
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Stomachus Grossus
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1847 Posts |
Posted - 05 February 2008 : 10:15:00 AM
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What changed me Fast? Jesus thats who changed me
Moriarty: I see that ten years in Britain have not changed your Imperial Roman outlook, Caesar.
Caesar (G): True, Moriartus, always a Roman eye.
Moriarty: Will you take wine?
Caesar: No thanks, I think I'll have a half of mild and a packet of crisps.
*the Goon Show the history of Plinny the elder |
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Fast Paul
Ape
United Kingdom
885 Posts |
Posted - 03 March 2008 : 6:02:23 PM
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Its happened again!
On Friday night I took my wife out for a meal. We had a drink at a friends pub afterwards and having no luck in phoning a taxi walked to the Taxi rank in Worthing town centre at about 2am.
Whilst waiting in line with many other revellers two lads (early twentys) were attacked across the street by four youths. After chasing them off with the help of the taxi marshals I noticed blood flowing down both of them.
One had been stabbed in the back, the other in the neck.
What is this world coming to?
When are we going to get tough on these toe-rags?
It`s true that opposite`s attract!
Thats why your surrounded by beautiful, intelligent, happy people! |
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Fast Paul
Ape
United Kingdom
885 Posts |
Posted - 05 July 2008 : 02:01:45 AM
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.
It`s true that opposite`s attract!
Thats why your surrounded by beautiful, intelligent, happy people! |
Edited by - Fast Paul on 05 July 2008 09:30:47 AM |
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scarrow
Forum Admin
397 Posts |
Posted - 05 July 2008 : 09:51:01 AM
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Sigh. I'm really quite fed up with this country's soft peddling on issues like this. You know, abroad, our European cousins shake their head in despair at the 'British who can't control their children'. We simply don't know how to care for our kids any more. They're out of control*
* Required caveat:- obviously not all of them |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1736 Posts |
Posted - 05 July 2008 : 10:16:03 AM
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It's not that we do not control our kids, but are NOT ALLOWED TO CONTROL THEM!
I do not smack my kids, and I tend to use my voice, only to get a visit from the Social Service (SS) who told me not to shout as it causes emotional stress! And is classed as Emotional and Mental Abuse!
So now my kids try it on! Yip they know exactly what we can and cannot do!
The main problem with today's society, is to much meddeling, and not enough fairness!
FP - that chap should have been charge with holding and offensive weapon, and threatened assualt. Yet he got slap on his wrist and you a caution! Next time - I better not say it -
What are we to do? I have no idea, I really have no idea!
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Stomachus Grossus
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1847 Posts |
Posted - 07 July 2008 : 11:58:16 AM
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I think what the ARchbishop of york says is quite interesting
Its in this article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7491531.stm
Moriarty: I see that ten years in Britain have not changed your Imperial Roman outlook, Caesar.
Caesar (G): True, Moriartus, always a Roman eye.
Moriarty: Will you take wine?
Caesar: No thanks, I think I'll have a half of mild and a packet of crisps.
*the Goon Show the history of Plinny the elder
www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com |
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nickrivers
Single Cell Organism
6 Posts |
Posted - 08 July 2008 : 2:35:34 PM
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I recall reading a joint article by Jeremy Paxman and a black youth leader a couple of years ago. Their conclusion was simple - at some point, for some reason, people in Britain began treating children as little adults.
I briefly caught a 'criminals on camera' type program just last night, showing gangs out of control on a Yorkshire housing estate. Each time the police spoke with the children they began with, "Mate, . . .".
As has been posted before, I think we need a drastic societal change in this country. Although not along the lines of the BNP thank you. |
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Peter Croft
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
281 Posts |
Posted - 08 July 2008 : 5:16:08 PM
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| Agreed, Nick. Sadly all part of the corrosive imbalance between rights and responsibilities. Much as I dislike the tories Cameron had a point about saying that people had a duty to look after their health if they expected to have the right to the health services. Just hope that extends the debate. I.e. those who claim the right to earn a high income should face up to the responsibility of paying their taxes etc. |
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Fast Paul
Ape
United Kingdom
885 Posts |
Posted - 08 July 2008 : 7:41:44 PM
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"Those who claim the right to earn a high income.........."
How do you claim the right to a high income Peter?
Blood sweat and tears and taking risks (like gambling everything you have on an idea.) or bl**dy hard work earn you a high income sometimes but not always.
The only thing you claim in todays society is the dole!
Why should high earners pay for the layabout scroungers?
40% is fair in my opinion even 45% but half of your earnings and above is taking the P**s!
Then again its easy to give away other peoples hard earned cash eh!
It`s true that opposite`s attract!
Thats why your surrounded by beautiful, intelligent, happy people! |
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Simon Scarrow
Small mammal
Uruguay
762 Posts |
Posted - 08 July 2008 : 10:56:26 PM
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| I think that some people do work hard, take risks and so on to achieve a high income, and would not quibble with them hanging on to a fair portion of it, Peter. However, I agree that some simply milk the system. On another post of yours I noted, you make reference to the salary committees that decide each other's pay and bonuses. That clearly is a fix and when things get so out of kilter, as they have in the city then some measures need to be taken to rein those people in. Fast Paul, I am sure you must think that some high earners are not quite so saintly as the kind you have in mind? |
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Peter Croft
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
281 Posts |
Posted - 09 July 2008 : 1:55:42 PM
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| And do you fit into that category, Simon? |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6967 Posts |
Posted - 09 July 2008 : 4:29:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nickrivers
I recall reading a joint article by Jeremy Paxman and a black youth leader a couple of years ago. Their conclusion was simple - at some point, for some reason, people in Britain began treating children as little adults.
Part of the problem is I don't think children are treated as children or adults. They exist in a sort of limbo.
If they were to be treated as adults, then that should include them taking responsibility for their behaviour and punished appropriately when they break the law. Yet too many parents treat their kids as infants. "Oh, its not his fault, he/she's too young to understand what he/she's doing". How many times have I heard that? Its an excuse given for bad beaviour at 4 yrs old, 9 yrs old, 13 years old....at what age do kids grow up? But whatever the age, they don't suddenly turn into responsible adults overnight, and certainly never will if they don't learn discipline from the earliest age. Scientists show that 2 year old kids understand what they are doing when they deliberately misbehave, and play on adults thinking they don't really mean it.
I don't think we treat young people as adults enough times. We give them no responsibility from the youngest ages, we don't punish them adequately when they cross the line , and we have artificially extended the time of childhood so much so that we have young adults out of control, don't fit into anywhere, see that the only people who have money on their estate are the druggies and gangsters. What else do we expect these sort of kids to turn into?
"We are Starfleet officers, weird is part of the job."
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Edited by - Ankhsy on 09 July 2008 4:30:55 PM |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8359 Posts |
Posted - 09 July 2008 : 7:22:19 PM
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So we should treat them as children: sit down, shut up and behave yourself or you'll go to bed without supper. (Or whatever other punishment seems appropriate.)
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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Fast Paul
Ape
United Kingdom
885 Posts |
Posted - 09 July 2008 : 7:38:31 PM
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I like the approach that Denver has taken in the states. Curfews. If kids are out after the curfew the police pick them up and take them to the local station where they are held until the parents turn up to take them home...along with a rather large fine!
Glorious!!!
I would like to see this approach used over here. (Though the lefties would hate it!) Redruth in Cornwall is messing about with it from late July to early September but as usual are taking the leftie approach and making it non-compulsory. What a waste of time and money. Not compulsory? I think they`ve missed the point of this.
And yes Simon, not all high earners are saintly! The old Boys network is still in full force I`m sure. But how do we differentiate from us saints to those sinners? Personally, I would look at the Corperate Tax system for answers and maybe the 1.6 million continental truck drivers who invade our shores each year with a weeks worth of fuel, no MOT and no road tax, who ignore fines and taco-graphs and speed limits. There must be a few quid in there somewhere, but best we not upset our euorpean brothers, or so our fine MP`s think. We have 166,000 brit truckers going bust at present. Lets reclaim our fishing grounds, and allow our fishermen to fish instead of 2 day weeks because of quotas. More revenue there also. A border police force to send back immigrants straight away would save a fortune too. I could go on as I`m sure we all could but more tax on anyone is not really the answer. It just compounds the problems. Bureaucracy is our biggest problem IMO and costs us billions. We should look at that before jumping on the easy targets. Tax and spend....Tax and spend...
It`s true that opposite`s attract!
Thats why your surrounded by beautiful, intelligent, happy people! |
Edited by - Fast Paul on 09 July 2008 7:42:07 PM |
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Nick Warren
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
23 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2008 : 06:40:06 AM
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As much as I despise the ultra-right as well as the far left agitators who I believe have caused the feral youth problem since the 1990s(remember that young offender who was sent on a safari?) by not punishing them properly with borstals and boot camps, this curfew thing could be a good idea but who is going to police it? PCSOs?
Time has told that liberal solutions like behavioural mentoring just don't work. ASBOS? A badge of honour on a trouble-hit estate. And I'm not going to say 'council estate' - I live on one and believe me, they are not all bad - we have a private home, 5% of the houses are council where I live in Newport and we have relatively little trouble. Reason? Good parenting and a sense of community where I live. People look out for each other when they have to.
When I grew up in the 1970s, my Dad would smack me for only the smallest thing - and I did suffer from autism at the time which I found out recently as my nephew is much the same as I was at the age of 4 and he gets away with murder, not literally - you were treated like anyone else then and called a few choice names. My Dad you could say was like DCI Gene Hunt!! But now I respect him for it and he has been a great father. A far cry from the laissez faire chav parents like the inbreds you see effing and jeffing at each other on the Jeremy Kyle show!! And you wonder where kids get it from.
Children also should learn about achieving things in life, give them something to work for and show them that it isn't all handed to them on a plate like on some Godawful reality TV show.
'If you're hungry, try a piece of your friend for dinner.' |
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 10 July 2008 : 08:40:24 AM
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Has anyone watcheD BANGED UP on C5? They've taken a handfull of youths who are fast on their way to getting stuck in jail for serious crimes, and are putting them into a mock prison for a couple of weeks. From the otset, 2 of the guys couldn't hack it, and were allowed to leave, both realising that if they do end up in jail, it's going to break them.
I also saw another programme, where they were speaking to a carrer criminal, who'd just been released for the 3rd time (think it was tax fraud or summit). He basically said that he cried himself to sleep the 1st nights he ever sent inside, and that, if he'd been | |
The Feral Youth
