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Peter Croft
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
283 Posts |
 Posted - 18 August 2008 : 9:48:23 PM
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Once again Dawkins brilliantly laid bare the dangers of religion, particularly when schoolchildren are exposed to it. There was nothing more chilling than the scene when the teachers of a science department were more willing to accept relativist arguments that to risk offending the religious convictions of their pupils. If we can't teach real knowledge in schools anymore, then the religious barbarians have won and we might as well return to the days of the Inquisition.
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6986 Posts |
Posted - 19 August 2008 : 09:20:48 AM
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I finished watching the series feeling angry at the teachers of the school who refused to insist on the factual evidence regarding evolution for fear of upsetting the children's religious beliefs. I was very angry at the education authorities of that un-named school who allowed a "science" teacher to teach his views that the world was less than 10,000 years old! I despair at the ignorance and narrow-mindedness of people who close their minds in favour of blind acceptance of a manufactured god for which not a shred of evidence exists. Most of all, I despair at the future of children indoctrinated on the garbage of superstitious religion.
No, there must be no return to the days of the Inquisition. However large the barbarian hordes, there will always be the enlightened few who will preserve knowledge through these modern 'Dark Ages'. Knowledge and science based on evidence will prevail in the end.
"We are Starfleet officers, weird is part of the job."
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Stomachus Grossus
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1847 Posts |
Posted - 19 August 2008 : 1:52:10 PM
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I agree wityh you Anksy there is little or no proof to the world being only 10K years old and that should not be taught in schools. Most of the 10K people are right crackpots.
However I do think that evolution should be taught as a theory not a fact as it is not currently factual. I think it is the most likely explaination for the development of the world and the evidence we have points towards it but it is not hard scientific fact. There are gaps in the evidence at the moment but they will probably be filled in over the years as we discover more things.
Is God manufactured I think not but then I know him personally and my view is obviously biased ... as is Dawkins.
We should teach in schools that atheism is probably as dangerous if not more dangerous that faith. After all in the last century athiest belief systems (Nazi and Communist or right wing and left wing) killed more people in just 70 years than ALL the religeous wars put together throught the entire human history.
Lets not get into another does.. doesnt debate on this we have killed this subject over the years.
Moriarty: I see that ten years in Britain have not changed your Imperial Roman outlook, Caesar.
Caesar (G): True, Moriartus, always a Roman eye.
Moriarty: Will you take wine?
Caesar: No thanks, I think I'll have a half of mild and a packet of crisps.
*the Goon Show the history of Plinny the elder
www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com |
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KilboFraggins
Invertebrate
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 19 August 2008 : 8:38:56 PM
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but surely, there's a right to reply on behalf of the atheists here to address the several points you make, before we lock the debate - hmmmmmm?
namely:
1. That Evolution is not fact.
2. Your assertion that you 'know' and freely converse with the most powerful being in the universe.
3. That atheism has killed more people in the last century than in the history of religion
Just a few casually made, throwaway comments made by yourself that should be completely examined and challenged before we lock this thread. |
Edited by - KilboFraggins on 19 August 2008 8:40:37 PM |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6986 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2008 : 09:14:18 AM
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Lets take Kilbo's points in reverse order:
3. Atheism has killed more people in the last century than religion - name one single event where this has been the case. There has never been a conflict in the name of atheism. While individuals may have been atheists, the killing was not done in the name of atheism. Secular states are not atheist states, so don't equate the two. As for the biggest mass killers of the 20th century...Stalin's government had all the trappings of religion, including Orwell's totalitarian theocracy; it's merely a play on words to say that it was not religious. Pol Pot was raised a Buddhist monk who grew up to execute Buddhist monks, along with anyone else he could lay his hands on. Whole books have been written on the occult underpinnings of Nazi Germany, the symbology of the Norse gods, to say nothing of the claims that Hitler was a Christian, or Hitler was a Jew; and Hitler's own writings express the kinship he felt with the Muslims! Good people do good things; bad people do bad things; but to make good people do bad things, it takes religion.
2. You know and freely converse with God - most people usually grow out of imaginary friends in their childhood. Its all in your mind, Stom, and not real.
3. That evolution is not fact - the evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Evolution is a fact, and if you bothered to research the evidence with an open mind, you might obtain some true enlightenment.
""To be clear-headed rather than confused; lucid rather than obscure; rational rather than otherwise; and to be neither more, nor less, sure of things than is justifiable by argument or evidence. That is worth trying for." Sir Geoffrey Warmock
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
580 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2008 : 11:10:52 AM
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but to make good people do bad things, it takes religion...or greed, desperation, drugs, etc. Religion is not the basis for all of our problems.
"My Mom says I'm cool"
Millhouse. |
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Stomachus Grossus
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1847 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2008 : 11:14:12 AM
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3. Evolution is not fact the scientific world does not believe that it is FACT they still call it a THEORY as it is NOT scientifically proven. That proof may come at some point and I concede and believe that evolution is the reason the world is as it is. But it is not a scientifically proven fact as it is unable to be proven. There are ton's of evidence that point towards it but there are still gaps in that evidence. once we fill those gaps then it will be fact.
2. My imaginary friend also heals people I have seen eyes grow back into EMPTY eye sockets. I have seen people with MS clinically proven to be healed. Could be mind over matter of course. Personally I beleive the person we asked to do the healings healed them.
1. True they were not done in the name of atheism but they were done by athiest states who had removed religeon and therefore the value of life was also removed by them.
We have of course been over this a number of times and i will not change my view and you will not change your view. So what is the point of the discussion?
We will only know who is right at the end> I am happy to weight until then
Moriarty: I see that ten years in Britain have not changed your Imperial Roman outlook, Caesar.
Caesar (G): True, Moriartus, always a Roman eye.
Moriarty: Will you take wine?
Caesar: No thanks, I think I'll have a half of mild and a packet of crisps.
*the Goon Show the history of Plinny the elder
www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1749 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2008 : 1:10:52 PM
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Got this the other day...
"One day a 6 year old girl was sitting in a classroom. The teacher was going to explain
evolution to the children. The teacher asked a little boy: Tommy do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Tommy, do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
TEACHER: Go outside and look up and see if you can see the sky.
TOMMY: Okay. (He returned a few minutes later) Yes, I saw the sky.
TEACHER: Did you see God up there?
TOMMY: No.
TEACHER: That's my point. We can't see God because he isn't there. Possibly he just doesn't exist.
A little girl spoke up and wanted to ask the boy some questions.
The teacher agreed and the little girl asked the boy: Tommy, do you see the tree outside?
TOMMY: Yes.
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy do you see the grass outside?
TOMMY: Yessssss!
LITTLE GIRL: Did you see the sky?
TOMMY: Yessssss!
LITTLE GIRL: Tommy, do you see the teacher?
TOMMY: Yes
LITTLE GIRL: Do you see her brain?
TOMMY: No
LITTLE GIRL: Then according to what we were taught today in school, she possibly may not even have one!"
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Fast Paul
Ape
United Kingdom
898 Posts |
Posted - 20 August 2008 : 7:37:44 PM
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Wow.....what a great thread! Three cracking topics in one!!! My views are
1, Atheism has killed no-one in its name, unlike religion. Atheism is the belief that there is no deity, pure and simple. No need to kill. No need to feel genocidal. Nothing to prove to others. No testosterone blow-outs. Just no deity.
2, Stoms imaginary friend is his business not mine so no comment.
3, Evolution can`t be proved?............ahem.......actually most of it can be proved. For instance it has been scientifically proven that whales and other similar aquatic mammals are the direct decendents of the wolf. Its not something that can be argued over, its a fact. Its called evolution. Therefore evolution exists. Its not theory. It is Human evolution that has yet to be defined but we do know that over 200,000 years ago, on the west coast of Africa, Humans existed and used fish hooks to hunt together, red ocre to dye and paint themselves, cook by fire and live as a comunity. Thats another fact. Where did they come from? No-one yet knows....My guess is evolution from apes hence our coccyx. (Only found in humans and tail-less apes......hmmmm....that tells a story eh!) You can believe in what you like...just don`t distort the facts.
Evolution is one of the final nails in the coffin of religion. God made man. Once this is disproved what hope has religion? Well we don`t know yet but I`m sure the religious leaders will come up with something when it is proved......there`s too much money in it for them not to try!!!
It`s true that opposite`s attract!
Thats why your surrounded by beautiful, intelligent, happy people! |
Edited by - Fast Paul on 20 August 2008 7:39:08 PM |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6986 Posts |
Posted - 21 August 2008 : 09:30:50 AM
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Ha ha, Warren, but we do have independent scientific proof that the brain exists, even if we can't see it with out own eyes. And with the help of my assistant... [Rappy tiptoes out in pink ballerins outfit holding a hacksaw....heading for Warren] ....
Warren, do not confuse with out of literal sight as without-existence. There are many things in this world we cannot see with the naked eye: molecules, bacteria, the furthest stars and the such. But we have factual evidence for their existence. We even know that black holes and stars exist even if we cannot see them because evidence, such as gravitational pull, indicates that they indeed exist. There is no evidence whatsoever for the existence of god other than in the imagination and wishful thinking of some people. That is why religion needs blind faith.
""To be clear-headed rather than confused; lucid rather than obscure; rational rather than otherwise; and to be neither more, nor less, sure of things than is justifiable by argument or evidence. That is worth trying for." Sir Geoffrey Warmock
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13792 Posts |
Posted - 22 August 2008 : 4:56:23 PM
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how many times are we going to have the religion argument??
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6986 Posts |
Posted - 26 August 2008 : 3:49:46 PM
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Forever, Parm! Just because its been going on for 10,000 yers (probably more), that's no reason to stop discussion.
Besides, its something interesting to do when other discussions have got boring.
""To be clear-headed rather than confused; lucid rather than obscure; rational rather than otherwise; and to be neither more, nor less, sure of things than is justifiable by argument or evidence. That is worth trying for." Sir Geoffrey Warmock
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13792 Posts |
Posted - 26 August 2008 : 4:10:54 PM
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I just think we need to start some more wide ranging discussions, relgion just seems to end up in the same ole cr@p every time
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1749 Posts |
Posted - 26 August 2008 : 4:29:49 PM
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bollocks, bollocks, bollocks etc...........
The thread and arguement is a load of bollocks!
We all have teh right to believe what we believe or do not believe........
Yet I get the impression that "certain" elements do not know what they believe hence the arguements/thread/waste of time ...etc........
If you need to make a decisione kindly do so on your own time, not ours......
"May the farce be with you allways!"
God Bless to all those who do, and do not believe!
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13792 Posts |
Posted - 26 August 2008 : 4:32:50 PM
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warren i do wish you would not beat around the bush mate...just what is your point??
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1749 Posts |
Posted - 26 August 2008 : 8:48:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Parmenion
warren i do wish you would not beat around the bush mate...just what is your point??
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
Beating about the bush! The bush that was there has grown legs and run so far away, where it can be safe from been beaten, wacked, burnt, chopped etc... I do not blame it......
The POINT I was trying to make is actually very simple:
You (as in anybody) believe what you want to believe, if you are not sure, ask! Do not create a "debate" under the guise of knocking each others "faith", in stead ask relevant questions, not "attacks".. on the individual!
Those that believe in the creation, great, well done.
Those that believe in evoloution, great well done.
Those that do not believe in anything, great well done.
Now people can we get onto a decent topic is further our debating skills, and the same old rubbish!
That is my point! I am sick and tired of reading "crap" ...... if I wanted to I'll get a "Mack Bolan" book! he he he he 
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13792 Posts |
Posted - 27 August 2008 : 11:57:33 AM
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Ever heard of Sarcasm Warren??...try going back on the posts and then see if you can spot the point where sacrasm enters it??
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6986 Posts |
Posted - 27 August 2008 : 1:40:23 PM
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Sarcasm? Warren? Never.
Hey, I'd love to get into other debates. And you are, right, Parm, it is all a vicious circle. I just keep hoping, as a result, someone will come up with something new and interesting, and we can all learn from it.
The problem with discussions like these is that they sound far more agressive than they actually are; and people then get upset. I read my post a few days afterwards, and then think to myself, 'Ouch, I didn't mean it to sound like that'. That is the problem with written text, and I really do wholeheartedly apologise to everyone (specially to Stom) for sounding so agressive. I don't mean it that way.
As for decent topics...its not the topic that's not decent; just the quality of the discussion. And I'll own up to, at times, not being as coherent as I'd like to be.
""To be clear-headed rather than confused; lucid rather than obscure; rational rather than otherwise; and to be neither more, nor less, sure of things than is justifiable by argument or evidence. That is worth trying for." Sir Geoffrey Warmock
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13792 Posts |
Posted - 27 August 2008 : 3:55:28 PM
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Ok so lets find a new topic...one that will stimulate some conversation...and not end up back on the god squad!
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1749 Posts |
Posted - 27 August 2008 : 10:15:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Parmenion
Ever heard of Sarcasm Warren??...try going back on the posts and then see if you can spot the point where sacrasm enters it??
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
Sarcasm, SARCASM..... just go and visit Rappie and ask him to give you a healthy .............! LOL Ask Rappie for a decent mug of coffee and some os Ankhsy's choc biscuits!
Sarcasm...... )((**(*&&^%^&*!
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Peter Croft
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
283 Posts |
Posted - 27 August 2008 : 10:47:25 PM
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For what it's worth.
1. Evolution is theory supported by observable evidence and hence is fact. Religion is superstition dignified by codification. There is no factual basis to the supernatural claims of religion.
2. Far more people have been killed in the name of religion than in the name of atheism. To conflate atheism with fascism or communism is a rather sneaky and dishonest line of argument.
3. Warren... People are entitled to their beliefs, true. But if someone told you that they believed that they were a giant green turtle on an exchange trip with a family in Surbiton would you not doubt that person's sanity, let alone their belief system? If not then how mad are YOU? Frankly, some beliefs are more equal than other beliefs because we can go some way towards validating them. |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1749 Posts |
Posted - 27 August 2008 : 10:54:52 PM
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zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
oh ................did someone say/type something?
Oh it was our resident "munster" Hi Peter.... to be honest.... I really don't give a dam!
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Edited by - WarrenH on 27 August 2008 11:07:20 PM |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1749 Posts |
Posted - 27 August 2008 : 11:11:14 PM
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he he he he ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
I am me, I have been, I am and I will be!
(Yikes - I must stop drinking coffee this late at night)
Ohyeah... I can fly!............. I got wings, I drank my Red bull! Red bull gives you wings...
You must try it Peter, old chap. Red bull gives you wings............ he he he he he he
"To be or not to be, that is the question" - ring any bells...... should do. A famous line written by a famous - sometimes hated author!......................
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6986 Posts |
Posted - 28 August 2008 : 12:39:09 PM
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I think its time we called in the men with straightjackets. Warren has OD on his happy pills again.
""To be clear-headed rather than confused; lucid rather than obscure; rational rather than otherwise; and to be neither more, nor less, sure of things than is justifiable by argument or evidence. That is worth trying for." Sir Geoffrey Warmock
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Graeme Canty
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2255 Posts |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1749 Posts |
Posted - 28 August 2008 : 5:27:47 PM
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The voice from the dust speaks - all hail the Dusty One!
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6986 Posts |
Posted - 28 August 2008 : 5:46:16 PM
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If I remember correctly, Raptor ate you, Warren. Or was that just a rumour?
""To be clear-headed rather than confused; lucid rather than obscure; rational rather than otherwise; and to be neither more, nor less, sure of things than is justifiable by argument or evidence. That is worth trying for." Sir Geoffrey Warmock
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1749 Posts |
Posted - 28 August 2008 : 6:36:35 PM
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Ok so that may be why I have wings.......... I am an Angel!
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1749 Posts |
Posted - 29 August 2008 : 10:28:37 AM
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| HA HA HA HA HA HA HA H | |
Dawkins documentary film on Darwin
