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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
 Posted - 04 September 2009 : 8:18:20 PM
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Ok i think i might be in serious trouble of getting banned from Norwich the way im going but im going to plough on....
Have to say i had issues with the latest book...
1) Is there a concious move to slant the stories so they appeal to a younger market as well as the adult market?
for me they seem to have lost some of the grit?
2) Have you been told to add a romance angle? its starting to A) grate a bit and B) the characters change, i Sands she had a pair she got stuck in and told people what was what, and her father was a no hold barred from left field senator. In this one she seems to be more of a standard wimpy patricians daughter and him a bit more of a ditherer..
3) Where has Macros balls gone, there are flashes of them...and i dont mean in the cage when he is in the buff. But our gritty down in the dirt foul mouthed and worse foul minded often brutal but fair Centurion seems to have gone soft or become a part time eunuch?
He should be telling cato "for fucks sake stop mooning around over a girl and pull your finger out"...and "stop being a moon eyed twat and do your job"
4) Cato..ok he is growing, and i can see where he is going, nothing changed there i think he needs the missus to die to develop the character properly.
all in all i liked the story, but it was too bloody PG13, its lost its balls, it does not have the eagles grit of prophecy and wolves and under the eagle etc... Ajax is a bloody great character and in the main he was perfectly written, although i think he could have been more blood thirsty.
But he was facing up against Sooty and Sweep in the book half the time in comparison to the old days
Sorry Simon..you know i love you and your books, and the writing, its just the gap between eagles of old and new and the Wellington books seems to be growing.
Am i the only one??...i hope so...then simon can just brush me under the carpet
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Edited by - Parmenion on 05 September 2009 09:18:45 AM |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2009 : 11:28:56 AM
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Parm, I agree with some of your comments, and have said so in an earlier listing.
1) the story has lost some of its grit, and that is because Macro and the Ambassador are becoming more emtional people instead of the stoics focused on the service of their country.
2) The romance angle is a dog. Macro and Cato seem to lose their heads over Julia. The real Macro would have killed Julia when he had the opportunity, and would never have obeyed the order by her father to take her to safety at that late point. Her father (in Sands) would have never given the order. You could have removed Julia completely from the story, and it would have made a much tighter grittier read.
I loved the basic story and the blood and guts and gore angles, but I couldn't help but feel that barbara Cartland was around the corner.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
Edited by - Ankhsy on 05 September 2009 3:46:32 PM |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2009 : 11:36:45 AM
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Pheeew...i thougth i was losing it and i was about to be a lone bully of Simon....eek...not that i want us all to pick on him.
It reminds me of quite a few films where there is a love interest stuck in there to appeal to a certain audience, but it has no relevance to the real plot and flow of the film and in fact it detracts and spoils the plot...IMHO!
and as you say such a shame the main thrust of the book was great, Ajax was brilliant, and im looking forward to more of him, and the next book having no Julia, i just hope we dont have to deal with a moon eyed Cato during the book, or if we do Macro gives him hell for it, i'd like to see Macro come out from under what ever spell he was under and return to who he was, tough but fair and taking no crap!
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2009 : 3:54:04 PM
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Lets hope this was an experiment by Simon to indeed attract a different type of reader and that the next book will give us back the Macro and Cato and Roman spirit we know and love.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2009 : 4:19:36 PM
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Hmm. Maybe I should re-re-read the book, because I liked it a lot on both first and second readings. I did think there was rather a jump from Macro about to kill Julia to the pair of them in a wagon, and expected something by way of explanation - presumably a slave knocking Macro on the head at the last moment, just as he was about to thrust his sword home. But I found all the reactions quite believable; presumed safety for Julia was far closer than in Sands, and as father of a daughter I'd have made the same decision knowing only what they knew at that point.
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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Simon Scarrow
Ape
Uruguay
1048 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2009 : 4:36:34 PM
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| Interesting. There was no plan here. The book came out the way it came out and I have had a large amount of emails that make no mention about the Julia issue, and many that say they like her as a character. As for the scene where Macro fails to kill her in time, there I wanted him caught in a fix of what he knows he should do but hesitates from doing, probably for the first time in his life. Result, he gets clobbered from behind before he can deal the mercy blow to Julia. Lesson for him and us all there about conscience making cowards of us all. |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2009 : 6:09:17 PM
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Cheers Simon, i hope you dont mind the comments...first time i have ever had need to have a bash.
Mrs Parm is struggling a bit with julia at the moment...she is only just at the bit where they arrive at the capital and last night said..."i wish she had drowned".
maybe its because we are not used to a love intrest on the books? but i do honestly thin its had a significant impact on of all people Macro, not Cato.
Cato has always been a bit wet and clumsy at times, in fact he has become better, more positive and mature, but with for me too much lovey dovey mooning.
But Macro is making decisions he would never have made before, eg: talking Julia out of the city, there is no way he would have done that before, he would have argued the senator down, it was stupid and way too late to do so, and he caved far too easily. i know it had to happen for the story, but the way it did just didnt seem to work for me.
And Julia in sands was fiesty, in this one she was told she could not pitch ion in the hospital and just accepted it, no way she would have accepted that in sands.
I suppose maybe is it because i have read a lot of your books im starting to notice the changes more??
i dont know?
Dont get me wrong, it will not stop me buying the next book (well she will not really be in it ..LOL...but either way i still would. ) it still a good read, and with great characaters and well written, its just things didnt match up to what i expected?
cheers (and sorry to bash away)
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2009 : 8:56:04 PM
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I completely agree with Parm.
Question - how can Macro get clobbered from behind when he is stading on a cliff edge? It would be unlike him to have his back to a vulnerable access especialy when he knows that the enemy is right around the corner.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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Simon Scarrow
Ape
Uruguay
1048 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2009 : 9:35:13 PM
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| He's against a cliff. It's a dead end. |
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Bat King
Invertebrate
United Kingdom
169 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2009 : 10:09:52 PM
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I only half agree.
In my opinion Macro taking Julia was in character - he follows orders, even daft ones. What surprised me was that her father asked him at this point & that she allowed it. They did seem a little softer than previously.
I thought Macro chickening out of killing Julia was interesting.
There were plenty of bits I really liked though. |
Edited by - Bat King on 05 September 2009 10:13:37 PM |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2009 : 10:45:48 PM
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thanks for the feedback Simon...i hope i didnt offend with the comments.
BAt king i dont think its the fact its a daft order, its a stupid order and one thats liable to get them all killed, and Macros experience should have told him enough to stand up to the senator on this.
and i agree there is stil plenty to really enjoy about this book especially Ajax.
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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PeteZahut
Single Cell Organism
2 Posts |
Posted - 07 September 2009 : 12:55:22 PM
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Hi, first post, but long time reader of the series. I would like to add my thoughts on Gladiator. For me, the stories are moving away from the Legions too much and becoming the Marco and Cato hired guns stories if you follow. There have been nine stories now, 5 with them in 2nd Augusta and four as flotsam floating around with auxillaries at best. In fact, of the first 5, one they were almost special forces behind the lines soldiers, one they were auxillaries, meaning that they have spent more (page time) with auxillaries rather than with the legions. I understand that this makes for greater diversity and story telling, but it would be good to see them back with the legions and how they deal with their change in relationship (Cato now Macro's superior) and how Macro copes being back in a legionary cohort after spending 3/4 years away from them.
I hope this doesnt come across as a whingeing session, as I have thoroughly enjoyed this series of books and hope they continue for many more stories yet.
One question, in the gladiator, there was an extra story at the end about Cato growing up. I thoroughly enjoyed and wondered if Simon has any plans to expand on this and write a book(s) about Macro and Cato before they met in Eagles ?
Would make for an interesting read. Is there any way of getting the other short stories that have been written at all ? And how many short stories have been written ? |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 07 September 2009 : 1:21:34 PM
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Pete (welcome) there short stories so far have been extras written for the waterstones 1st edition release of the books.
There was one in Centurion as well (in the watersones edition i think only 3000 copies)
also there was another short story in a book called the book of roman whodunnits called heads you lose.
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Edited by - Parmenion on 07 September 2009 1:22:07 PM |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 07 September 2009 : 4:11:41 PM
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Welcome, Pete! I'd be glad to see Macro and Cato back in a Legion too, but we'll just have to wait and see what Simon has planned for them.
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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Peter
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - 08 September 2009 : 1:41:06 PM
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Got to say, i loved it!! (Gladiator)best one yet! but then I say that every time I read one of these books. Just wish there were more!! I think the addition of a woman into the mix is great & just as with a real woman, she changes every thing, peoples attitudes, how they react, their motivation & even how they think! Come on guy's, what happened to you when you met your good ladies, be honest! Its going to interesting to see how Cato & Macro navigate this. But as with all soldiers, family has to come second to duty, then as well as now. So keep it comming Simmon. Hope your feeling better
Peter
Per mare per tarrem
Illegitimis nil carborundum |
Edited by - Peter on 08 September 2009 2:19:06 PM |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 08 September 2009 : 2:31:09 PM
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Ok Peter, as i said i get how Cato reacts differently with a woman around, and evern to a degree Macro.
But I would have expected Macro to go the other way, ie annoyed that Cato is being a doe eyed prat?
But does that mean that Julia would become less of an independant woman?
would the senator change?
and no woman is going to change all those years of Macors common sense and experience in soldiering is it?
Also these are tougher times, the men less likely to pander to the women and shift in attitude.
I think the next book away from Julia chasing down Ajax will be very very interesting.
personally i'd like to see how blood thirsty Cato will get if someone sticks a knife in Julia?
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Peter
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - 08 September 2009 : 4:02:36 PM
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I get what you mean about women & tougher times, but, look what Cleopatra did to Julius Cesar's head, not mention mark Anthony 100 years previously. Once they get in your head? S--- happens!! Even for brave experienced, battle hardened men like Macro, to kill an intelligent beautiful woman (your best buddies fiancee), would be enough to make anyone hesitate & that's all it takes. Plus Macro at this point has had little sleep, faced with having to make on-the-spot decisions is one thing, but put emotion (a forbidden word to most good soldiers) into it? its just not something he's had to deal with before, this was personal common sense went out the window (or up the cliff in this case)
Also at that time, women especially a Roman senator's daughter, whilst independent & strong minded in private, would never have been able to question the orders of father with his subordinates.
The other thing, the Senator & his group were on route to Rome, this situation was thrust upon them, so his mind set was with marrying his daughter & Roman politics, not fighting a pitch battle with the rebels. It all has an effect, to be robust in those circumstances would tough for some the greatest leaders.
To me, this all make things much more real, which is why we all love these books soooo much!!
Story books about brave hero's with ball's of steel a ten a penny & often written & read by people who have never fire a shot in anger. But the reality is, most very very brave soldiers do have emotions, their training means they can do things & block out that part of their mind. But sooner or later it comes to get you, today as then, many of our special & elite soldiers suffer terrible psychological problems, PTSD for one,if not straight away, often in later life. My point is, for soldiers like macro, on matter how tough, how professional or experienced, there is a human side & its great to have an author who see's that.
Peter
Per mare per tarrem
Illegitimis nil carborundum |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 08 September 2009 : 4:58:15 PM
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quote:
I get what you mean about women & tougher times, but, look what Cleopatra did to Julius Cesar's head, not mention mark Anthony 100 years previously. Once they get in your head? S--- happens!! Even for brave experienced, battle hardened men like Macro, to kill an intelligent beautiful woman (your best buddies fiancee), would be enough to make anyone hesitate & that's all it takes. Plus Macro at this point has had little sleep, faced with having to make on-the-spot decisions is one thing, but put emotion (a forbidden word to most good soldiers) into it? its just not something he's had to deal with before, this was personal common sense went out the window (or up the cliff in this case)
I have no issue with this, i can even see how Macro got captured, what i dont get is how he even left the city? Macro of Old would have stood up to the senator, would have left sooner, not stayed at the inn where he fought against Ajax, he would have left in the dark as soon as possible, or he would have used that fight as an excuse not to leave at all.
i am a huge fan of simons work, but it semed that The fit of the fight at the gate and then them leaving were all to ..rehearsed to fit with the plot rather than fitting within the normal flow of simons story telling, and for me that seems part of the "fitting around Julia"
quote:
Also at that time, women especially a Roman senator's daughter, whilst independent & strong minded in private, would never have been able to question the orders of father with his subordinates.
that didnt stop her in Centurion
quote:
The other thing, the Senator & his group were on route to Rome, this situation was thrust upon them, so his mind set was with marrying his daughter & Roman politics, not fighting a pitch battle with the rebels. It all has an effect, to be robust in those circumstances would tough for some the greatest leaders.
nah not selling me on that one, these are guys who have been in it and dealt with it before, i can take the senator changing a bit....but i daont accept the Macro change for that reason.
quote:
Story books about brave hero's with ball's of steel a ten a penny & often written & read by people who have never fire a shot in anger. But the reality is, most very very brave soldiers do have emotions, their training means they can do things & block out that part of their mind. But sooner or later it comes to get you, today as then, many of our special & elite soldiers suffer terrible psychological problems, PTSD for one,if not straight away, often in later life. My point is, for soldiers like macro, on matter how tough, how professional or experienced, there is a human side & its great to have an author who see's that.
again not arguing the human side, im arguing the sudden lack of experience and common sense, the loss of his innate soldiering skills, his sudden move from experienced centurion to rookie...or thats the way it came accross.
we all change around the fairer sex, but not that much, and even if it were to eb the case with macro it needed to be written into the story, i know as a reader we have to feel these things, and become involved and embroiled in the plot.
but there was no implication of this in the plot, Macro just felt ...well not himself.
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Edited by - Parmenion on 08 September 2009 4:59:40 PM |
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Peter
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - 08 September 2009 : 5:49:20 PM
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I guess we'll never know what went on the editors floor!
However, the senator was in a tricky situation, he had a laps in judgment, as have many people at a crucial time through history. Sometimes even great leaders just get it wrong, for no logical reason, different day, different circumstances.
Macro had to rely, on his superiors intuition, wrongly & against his instinct as it turned out. However, Macro new the senator believed he was his daughters best hope of survival & it would be a very foolish centurion who chose argue with a senator over this particular point. Specially if the senator was proved right! so while he tried to persuade him it was I'll advised, he really had no choice.
Peter
Per mare per tarrem
Illegitimis nil carborundum
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Peter
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - 08 September 2009 : 8:57:35 PM
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Talking of the editors floor?
Simon, what is the chances of getting to read some of bits left out during editing? A bit like 'The editors cut' you sometimes get with DVD's like, dare i say it, Gladiator. Some of the scene's that were added to their 'editors cut' greatly enhanced the film.
There must be a opportunity there? The only problem I have with your books is I'm gutted when its finished
I appreciate ,commercially, tough decisions have to be made when it comes to editing, but to release an older series of books with additional content you already have? Well ....happy days!!
Might take a bit of marketing, but generally, I have yet to find an unhappy Scarrow reader. If you only sold them to a third of your existing customers its got to be worth a look!
You could test them on the people from this site, some how I think there would be a lot of happy readers out there! Any volunteers?
Peter
Per mare per tarrem
Illegitimis nil carborundum |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 08 September 2009 : 9:28:38 PM
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Simon often sells the manuscript, 1st draft, which has additional writing in it. he sells them on ebay for charity.
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Peter
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - 09 September 2009 : 10:36:46 AM
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| Thanks Parmenion, I'll have a look for those! nice one Simon! |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 09 September 2009 : 1:32:43 PM
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From a woman's point of view, and a woman who originally liked Julia's feisty attitude, i would have liked to give her a hard slap on Galdiator. But maybe that is the measure of Simon's success that he can elicit a strong reaction from me towards one of his characters.
Peter's comment that our dynamic duo seem to going in the 'legion independent' direction is a good observation. It's one I hadn't appreciated...but now that you mention it.... Perhaps that is a reason for Macro and Cato going soft. Being out of their normal environment, they are more vulnerable to the feeble emotions of ordinary men. Realistic. Boring...but realistic. Okay, I appreciate Simon has an audience to appeal to (other than me?! Incredible!), and I might not always like the way his stories go, but I think it is to his amazing credit that he has created and brought to life two characters such as Macro and Cato that I feel an allegiance towards and care very much what happens to them and their (fictional) lives.
Cliff face...oh. Sorry, Simon, my imagination went off in another direction.
I still dislike Julia (SLAP!).
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 09 September 2009 : 1:54:52 PM
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cat fight!!!!!!
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 09 September 2009 : 3:08:30 PM
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I have visions of her as Jordan but blonde.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 09 September 2009 : 3:12:11 PM
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so really this book has been a Mammary issue all round for simon! LOL!!
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Peter
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - 10 September 2009 : 12:00:08 PM
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Hi Ankhsy, I think Macro has a long way to go before gets in the 'legion Independent' mode, I don't think he's gone soft, but he's definitely starting to think a bit more! which can be a slipper slop for a soldier.
Cato, well he's in love, the question is, how will he be able to handle this while being a soldier? Some how, going by his track record for dealing new challenges, I think he'll get his head around it.
May be good kick in the soft bits from Macro will help him turn the corner! we'll have to see.
As for giving the lovely Julia a slap! Maybe that's what she wants! A good strong hand to lead her? You ladies, for men, are a bit of a mistery.
Peter
Per mare per tarrum
Illegitimis nil carborundum |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 10 September 2009 : 5:38:36 PM
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There are times when I don't understand myself, Peter. But take it from me, we woman like strong minded men. Somehow, men go all soppy over googoo-eyed women and lose their head. In the previous book, I thought Cato was not mature enough for Julia as she was strong-willed. And now that he has lost his head over her and shown how immature he really is, I think she will lose interest in him soon enough.
I wonder...maybe Julia should meet Vespasian's wife in the next book. She could then tell Julia of Cato's previous love affair with her servant, and that would really put the cat among the pigeons!
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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Peter
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
29 Posts |
Posted - 11 September 2009 : 12:32:55 PM
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See what i mean! As soon as the ladies get involved, all manor of intrigue & scenario appear from nowhere! Maybe that's why us men, (most men) like women so much! They just get the juices flowing.
Now this is starting to get a bit 'ladies novel'!
Of course, the mere mortal Cato will have to cross that bridge when he gets to it. Some how though, I think that wouldn't be a problem for these two. The slave girl was a while ago, a previous relationship & now dead. Plus Julia isn't the insecure type, she won't be thinking to long about his ex's & most of the roman upper classes (men & women) have relations with a slave at some stage.
So, if she's to go, (which would be a shame for this great new character)it would have to be death.
The thing about Cato is, Immature yes, but he has that edge, inner strength mental as well physical, ability to think clearly under extreme pressure & that makes his special. Maybe that is what attracts Julia to him
I do think that these two, as a team, once we're over the lovey dovey bit, are going to be really good & Macro as hard line support, will create all sorts of great opportunity's. Plus having the good senator in Rome is going to help them deal with Narcissus, cos i guess, at some stage in the future, we have to get from Emperor Claudius to Emperor Vespasian. Gona be interesting!!
Peter
Per mare per tarrum
Illegitimis nil carborundum |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 11 September 2009 : 1:16:22 PM
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"Gona be interesting" is an understatement! Cato being Macro's superior? I can't see Macro obeying quietly.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 11 September 2009 : 1:36:48 PM
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Really, depends if Macro continues the way he was in gladiator!
He was much more of an order follower, even if it was stupid.
I think Macro of old would still follow the order but with his relationship might feel he could point out the folly of an order to Cato, and cato would have to jump on Macro to stomp that out quickly if he wanted to be obeyed, he needs to stamp his authority, i think they are due a big bust up at some point in the near future.
Im sure followed by a reconciliation.
Maybe it could be the start of a wedge between them...one that could drive them slowly apart to end them up on opposite teams come the year of the 4 emperors?
who knows so many potential plots
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Gladiator Feedback
