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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
 Posted - 09 October 2009 : 12:01:10 PM
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Gary McKinnon, the autistic hacker who hacked into US military and NASA computers, has lost his final High Court challenge against extradition to the USA. The USA accuse him of causing $800,000 (£487,000) worth of damage in 2001 and 2002,which he disputes. They also accused him of immobilising sensitive systems in the months following the 9/11 attacks. McKinnon says he was on a "moral crusade" to find classified documents about UFOs, not a malicious individual bent on bringing down US military systems. If convicted, he could face up to 70 years in prison.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7839338.stm
What say you?
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus.
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 09 October 2009 : 12:43:56 PM
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Straightforward answer: Yes, he should be extradited. The damage he did was in the US and that's where he should stand trial. His autism is irrelevant as far as the extradition is concerned, the US courts will take account of it. Personally I don't think it should make the slightest difference, he knew he was hacking into other people's computers, whether state-owned or private doesn't matter, and _any_ hacker should be punished. And the "moral crusade" is rubbish as a defence, even if he had an obsession with UFOs it wouldn't excuse the damage he did.
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 09 October 2009 : 12:48:53 PM
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NO: the USA offered him a plea deal when it happened admit guilt serve 2 years and a small fine end of story, but he didnt know what he was doing had poor legal advise and thought he was innocent, his autism is a disease and makes him obsessed with UFOs and this is why he did it and he remains convinced that he was right, becayuse of his illness.
the USA (goverment) just wants to punish him and be seen to do it, its a political move on the part of some on in the administration opver there trying to make headlines and make hay while they can.
will this serve any moral good or right? NO
Will it resolve anuthing? NO
Is there any greater good to be gained? NO
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 09 October 2009 : 1:30:05 PM
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Agree with Parm: there's nothing to be gained nby him serving a sentance in the US as appposed to one here. He's been caught, and surely the US/UK can agree upon a fair punishment between them.
"My Mom says I'm cool"
Millhouse. |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 09 October 2009 : 4:09:03 PM
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Illness? He's clever enough to do the hacking, which indicates that he's capable of distinguishing right from wrong. If you excuse him on the grounds of an obsession, can you also excuse those lunatics who obsess over actresses and stalk them until they're terrified? The same criteria must be applied to all obsessions, so which is it - excuse the obsession of any criminal, or punish him/her for what they do?
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 09 October 2009 : 4:35:08 PM
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I don't excuse him because of his mental illnes, but it should be taken into account for the sentancing. He shouldn't get off scot free, and a prison term here in the UK would better suit this case. I just don't think that serving his sentance in the USA would be of any benifit to anyone, and is a hangover from the Quntinimo Bay (spl) era. I would hope that we can distinguish between someone who is a genuine threat to life and security, and someone follish or genuinely incapable of understanding the implications of their actions.
"My Mom says I'm cool"
Millhouse. |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 09 October 2009 : 9:10:47 PM
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just out of interest John do you atually know anyone who sufers with obsessive autism? i do!
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Livia
Single Cell Organism
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 10 October 2009 : 08:39:59 AM
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From over on this side of the cyber pond, this story is getting no news time in the states. With all the computer hacking going on, of course the US government has to be seen as going after each and every hacker. My bet, if he McKinnon gets extradited, it would be a quick trial. He will serve a year and then released. It isn't so much that they want to punish him. It is more that they want to be seen doing it. This situation sounds very much like our Insanity defense. I was insane when I did it-therefore I am not guilty. I think it should be Guilty by reason of Insanity-and then have a different punishment. Let a judge determine the punishment. At least, it seems like McKinnon should be kept away from computers.
Poison is Queen |
Edited by - Livia on 10 October 2009 08:41:12 AM |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 10 October 2009 : 3:42:43 PM
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quote:
I was insane when I did it-therefore I am not guilty.
he didnt suddenly recover from autism, he still has it, he will always have it.
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 10 October 2009 : 5:04:09 PM
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So he should allways be kept from the internet.
"My Mom says I'm cool"
Millhouse. |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 10 October 2009 : 5:51:42 PM
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oh right ok, so anyone with an illness should be kept away from the internet...any other sweeping rules? shall i lead the jews to the showers?
the fact is he is not a genius, he showed a major flaw in the security of their security net works, they want to cover their embaressment as muc as anything.
he should be punished but not to the degree talked about, and he should be helped because he is sick, for christs sake we are spending more money on the care and anonymity of the child molesting nanny...and she shoudl be hung!
Centurion Parmenion
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 10 October 2009 : 7:21:33 PM
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Couldn't agree more about the nanny. But yes, people with psychiatric problems that lead them to hack into other folk's computers should be kept away from the internet. In fact anyone with any psychiatric problem that makes them do damage of any kidn should be kept locked up. We've had enough of these patients released into the community to know that they can't be trusted to take their medicines and stay safe around others - or have you forgotten the number of killings they've comitted over the past years? If you're not going to jail them as a punishment, keep them in secure hospitals for life.
And yes, I've known quite a few autistic people as well as those with other problems. Was under treatment myself for a while, in fact, though my problem wasn't a threat to anyone or anything. According to some experts a large percentage of the population shows autistic symptoms of lesser severity, apparently including all those who find it hard to make friends and anyone who can concentrate on a book or task to the extent that they don't actually hear what anyone is saying to them (!). Which would include me I suspect, I was well known for not hearing the alarm when we held fire drills - though in self-defence I plead partial deafness having lost many frequencies including those that the fire alarms used.
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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CTL666
Invertebrate
United Kingdom
62 Posts |
Posted - 10 October 2009 : 7:52:19 PM
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I don't think it makes much difference what anyone in the UK believes in this case. The US have enough power and influence to ensure that whatever they want will be made to happen. I think the guy's screwed. He'll go to the US and they've already decided his fate - anything else is just for show. IMO.
D. |
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ToxicJR
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
Posted - 11 October 2009 : 12:20:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John Prigent
According to some experts a large percentage of the population shows autistic symptoms of lesser severity, apparently including all those who find it hard to make friends and anyone who can concentrate on a book or task to the extent that they don't actually hear what anyone is saying to them (!).
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito
Everyone has sudden urges which can be linked to Autism. You know when you reaaaally want to get something done or right and you get sudden random inspiration or motivation to do it. I get it all the time with practicing. I dont know if its a drummer thing(lol) but sometimes I'd be sat down doing something completely different and then feel the urge to go practice and practice and practice for hours even if its just random bashing away.
I also know a girl who has Autism with Drumming. She is 12 years old and an IMMENSE drummer... however, she would ignore you and do anything to play if she wants to. (Even if it includes a physical beat down on her school teachers to let her use the kit) Which could be the case with McKinnon... The steps he took to try and get somewhere he wanted to be, without realising what he has done to try and achieve that.
Madness is a gift that has been given to me |
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CTL666
Invertebrate
United Kingdom
62 Posts |
Posted - 11 October 2009 : 5:34:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ToxicJR
I also know a girl who has Autism with Drumming. She is 12 years old and an IMMENSE drummer... however, she would ignore you and do anything to play if she wants to. (Even if it includes a physical beat down on her school teachers to let her use the kit) Which could be the case with McKinnon... The steps he took to try and get somewhere he wanted to be, without realising what he has done to try and achieve that.
All of which would seem to make him a danger to TPTB. If he cannot control his urges and retains an interest in this subject, then he's extremely likely to repeat his crime if given the opportunity. This in itself is likely to be seen as enough of a reason to lock him up as any other they could think of.
D.
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ToxicJR
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
Posted - 11 October 2009 : 9:13:41 PM
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Then maybe he should be given help to contain it. These "Urges" can't be helped with Most cases of Autism.
Madness is a gift that has been given to me |
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 11 October 2009 : 9:16:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Parmenion
oh right ok, so anyone with an illness should be kept away from the internet...any other sweeping rules? shall i lead the jews to the showers?
I can't even begin to underatand where you came to that conclusion, Parm. Where did I suggest everyone with any illness be kept away from interent,and the rest of that statement made no sense.
He has a proven problem understanding the boundries of right and wrong on the intenet: if he can't control where he goes on it, we should prevent him getting any access to it. Make the punishment eflect the cime: this would pevent repeat errors far more effectively than 2 years inside.
"My Mom says I'm cool"
Millhouse. |
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Simon Scarrow
Ape
Uruguay
1048 Posts |
Posted - 12 October 2009 : 09:13:01 AM
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Extradite? No. And it has nothing to do with his autism. For many years now the US has operated a very one sided extradition treaties with the UK with some fairly distasteful results. I can recall in the the 1980s when a US serviceman raped a girl in Thetford and then was suddenly given diplomatic status so the US could slip him out of the country back home where his case was quietly hushed up after a minor disciplinary hearing. Same again in Italy when the crew of an Intruder plane decided to fly down an Italian mountain pass for a prank, and took out a cable car killing thirty skiers. They too were hurriedly whipped away for a trial in the US. Surely, since the crimes were committed in the UK and Italy, then the respective governments should be able to have the culprits tried in their countries?
As for the current case. The crime was committed here in the UK even though US systems were affected, so if he has breached the law then he should be tried here in the UK. Simple as that. If the US want to extradite, then we should say, fine - but only after you hand over all those US citizens who are wanted for trial by other treaty countries. |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 12 October 2009 : 10:47:15 AM
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The problem with the US extradition agreement with the UK is that the US does not have to provide prima facie evidence that any crime/damage was committed (although the UK has to provide a "reasonable" demonstration of guilt if they want someone extradited from the US); blame Blunkett for this unequal agreement. So, all the US has to do is 'ask' for the suspect, and it is up to the UK court to decide whether there is any reasonable grounds for 'suspicion' that a crime has been committed (without the US having to provide any evidence).
McKinnon confirmed that he did hack into the computers (although he denies he caused any damage). Whether he realised what he was doing was right or wrong, or whether his illness should be taken into account is totally irrelevant as far as the extradition agreement is concerned. The UK courts can do nothing about it.
This agreement was introduced originally to fight terrorism....just like the US Patriot Act. Did anyone at the time have the foresight to realise how it would be abused?
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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Livia
Single Cell Organism
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 02:36:10 AM
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I would be all for the UK courts handling it. The extradition laws benefit the States. It would seem the UK should have similar extradition laws as France. France will not allow a French citizen to be extradited to the States. Oh, my, I think I just praised the French. This might be a sign of one of the four horsemen will be coming soon....
Poison is Queen |
Edited by - Livia on 13 October 2009 02:45:59 AM |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2020 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 09:43:29 AM
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Hi all,
Yes he HACKED into a SECURE network, one of many such attempts, by many subversive people(s)............. Yes he is to be charge with the offence. So lets charge him here, ok - So he gets charged here, He is before court - His Defence has to avenues to pursue - (1) As this crime spans two continents’. That is the Hack started in the UK, and end up at the Pentagon! So who has legal claim to trying the alleged offense! UK or USA.... It can be argued for both and for each other, so the courts have to ask “Who has been affected by this crime?” and they have to answer, that is was the USA. Hence the extradition!
Should GB, manage to secure his trial here in the UK, The second avenue will be used – “My Client is AUTISTIC, your Worship/Me Lord, and he has conscience ability of determining what is right or wrong” The jury after hearing all the evidence will either be a “hung” jury or will declare him Not Guilty! So the next time, an extradition is required, the UK has to renegade on the treaty, or go 110% with it and accept the sentence should there be one.
This thread has argued that “Autism” is a form of defence, and explanation as to what he did, and therefore he is not accountable. Should this be deemed a valid form of defence, we are going to get inundated with crimes that are going to be blamed on Autism. This will result in a complete reversal of current trends, and any person who is confirmed to be Autistic will be placed into a Place of Safety! Is this what we want?
Another argument “Is it for the Good of the People”..... What the hell is that? A Crime is a Crime! End of!. Since I have been in the UK, and number of Crimes has been closed that way.
Some have complained against the Laws the States has made! They learnt that from the masters of Legal Nonsense – THE BRITS! So is it nice to have it reversed?
The UK government has made it law that NO COMPANY SHALL OFFER INCENTITVES TO ANOTHER COUNTRY/COMPANY or INDIVIDUAL to secure a contract! Ok so who has SKY, what deal did you get... OK IF you take our Package, not only will you get...... but also......., after some more haggling, final offer, you have got, and you get now you’ll also get..... and reduction in price of say 10%... (only an example) WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? Incentive has been offered to secure the DAM CONTRACT!
Yet When BEA does business with Arab states, where it is customary to offer incentives, with it be in the form of additional products, services, entertainment etc....... have they not done what SKY has just done? (SKY has been used as an example only) Yet they Government want to charge BEA with Fraud and breaking the “No Incentive” rule.. This is one case that was quashed as it “It was not in the interest/good of the people”........ No they bit off something that had it gone to court; they would have had to charge every single business and person in the COUNTRY!
So we want what is right, and not serving other powers, whether it is the USA or EU.... We need to start standing up for ourselves, bring back ALL our industry, treble our Army (That is all Arms of the service) and sort out our own attitudes to ourselves. And those that do not like can leave! SIMPLES!
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Should Gary McKinnon be extradited to USA?
