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Simon Scarrow
Ape
Uruguay
1048 Posts |
 Posted - 12 October 2009 : 1:43:01 PM
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The phrase seemed to be a constant refrain during the Conservative Party conference, and frankly it just proves that they are no better than Labour in the lies they toss our way. I hardly think that 'Honest' Dave and Gideon (sorry, George, as he prefers to be called - so much more demotic don't you think?) are likely to endure the same hardships as the general population of the UK. Dave is worth some £30 million (which has not stopped him claiming approx £250K in mortgage subsidies from the taxpayer), and Gideon Osborne is set to inherit a family fortune of his own.
If they had said, "The future is going to be a lot tougher for those most vulnerable in society, while the better off, like so many of us Conservative Apparatchiks, are going to suffer very little discomfort, but we will try to understand and alleviate the suffering of those less well off than ourselves..." then I might respect them. As it is, their claims ring as hollow as ever.
As for the slashing of expenditure by the state, that is truly worrying. Just about every economist worth their salt is warning that such action could choke off any recovery and send the UK economy spiralling into a very long depression. As one pointed out, when you a nation is at war, no one stops to check the expenditure. First, you win the war and sort the debt out later. Same goes for the current crisis.
What a mess we are in. A government that is incompetent and dishonest, and a government in waiting that is ignorant and dishonest.
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 12 October 2009 : 3:34:10 PM
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I'm afraid the Conservatives are no better than Labour. Should they win the next election, it will be as a result of the vote against Labour, rather than for the Conservatives. What I don't understand is why the Lib dems don't seem to be making any inroads? not that they are any better...but they are different.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 12 October 2009 : 3:57:51 PM
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Hmmm. Civil Service mandarin on £100,000 and a year's notice. Make him redundant and he gets £100,000 pat in lieue of notice and £ 64.?? dole money. Keep him on and he gets £100,000 a year plus pay rises for the rest of his working life, then early retirement on a taxpayer-funded index-linked final salary pension of probably more than £60,000 even ingoringfuture pay rises. Which is the better deal in terms of reducing expenditure? It's the high-paid Whitehall and Council officials and managers with no real jobs (five-a-day outreach consultants, anyone) that are under threat, not the £15,000 bods who do the real work.
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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CTL666
Invertebrate
United Kingdom
62 Posts |
Posted - 12 October 2009 : 6:53:18 PM
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IMO they are all as bad as each other and it'll make no difference which group gets in. However, given that the entire system is corrupt and stinking, this is no real surprise. The problem is that the cure - the complete removal of the entire system, which would allow us to begin again with a clean slate - is absolutely impossible without causing the collapse of (what was once) our country.
Realistically, what chance has any honest person got when faced with so many back stabbing, self serving, lying, thieving scum? Our political system is full of the sort of people that our country has come to deserve. We, as a people, have allowed them to remain in power and constantly vote more of their ilk into the system. Then we complain that they are a bunch of scumbags. And why do we do it? Because democracy says we can; the flawed system that lets any moron vote even though they have no more grasp of the issues than a slug might. The average Joe will not vote for someone who promises to do what is necessary - unpopular and expensive though such things invariably are - but will instead vote for the one who promises them the easiest ride, even though there is no way to keep such promises.
D.
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Peter Croft
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
363 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 10:41:54 AM
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So what are you suggesting? Pass an exam on current affairs before you are allowed to vote? (Hmmm, not a bad idea at that, as long as I get to mark the exam papers).
The trouble for Labour is that no one thanks them for what they have done, there is no gratitude in the electorate, they simply live for empty promises. That's why Cameron will win. |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2020 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 11:34:45 AM
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SO what the difference between Labour, Torries, Lib Dems, and UKIP and all the others....... NOTHING! The all talk nonsense, bicker and do not deal with what needs to be dealt with! SACK the lot! Put them all in uniform and send to Afganistan! WITH NO RETURN ADRESS - we do not need of want them back!
Once that is done Put Mr Croft in the PM's seat and wait for him to work miracle! LOL
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 11:46:57 AM
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I think passing an exam on current affairs before you are allowed to vote would be a great idea! No multiple-choice questions, though.
Democracy is a good idea in theory when you have an informed electorate all working together for the good of the country. But that will never be the reality and democracies will always be flawed. So the next best thing should be the selection of politicians with integrity and intelligence, all working for the good of the country. But in the long term, the political system actively discourages the success of politicians who act with integrity and no self-interests. Many of them develop god-complexes, and with it come perceptions of entitlements which remove them from the reality of everyday life. Thank politicians? C'mon Peter, the perks they get are compensation for it being a thankless job.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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Peter Croft
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
363 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 12:33:41 PM
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| I merely alluded to all the very positive things that Labour has done in government for which they have little credit in the bank (as it were). I'm not saying that it outweighs the dumb things, but the fact is the good is being overlooked in the media. But then that would be a positive story to tell and that just isn't newsworthy. |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2020 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 4:40:33 PM
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Peter - since when do the press actaully say anything positive? it is always negative! No matter what happens - Hey we have save 10 people from electricution on the railway lines - no they were not sitting the railway tracks hehehehehe, the elctric cable snapped and landed on the rail car.............. what would be published - "100 people nearly electrocute by fail to maintain the powerlines!" What was positive has become very negative! That is the press - Good does not sell, bad always sells.......... look at the Mirror and Stephen Gately's death, The Sun, etc....
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stuartr
Single Cell Organism
32 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 9:52:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Croft
I merely alluded to all the very positive things that Labour has done in government for which they have little credit in the bank (as it were). I'm not saying that it outweighs the dumb things, but the fact is the good is being overlooked in the media. But then that would be a positive story to tell and that just isn't newsworthy.
While I am no fan of the Labour Party I tend to agree with your general point. The Media wants headlines, and as a consequence tends to over-simplify stories and also tends to pander to its particular views. What we really need is a method of having proper informed balanced discussions, and the willingness to accept that even parties we don't like can have good ideas (although clearly not that many of them!).
However before I blame the media for everything, it is clear that Politicians and the Media are in this together, both need each other, both criticise the role of the other one, while seemingly oblivious to, or unwilling to admit their own faults.
All the time, us the great British public continue to lap up the crap that they feed us, put up with the ever advancing mass of stupid laws, and crap journalism and continue to complain endlessly about how politicians don't know about real life. Sadly we probably have the media and political system that we deserve  |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 9:58:00 PM
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I read your post at lunchtime Peter, but 9 1/2 hours later I'm still trying to think of any very positive things that Labour has done for us in the last 13 years. Please could you list some? I'm well aware that your definition of positive may differ from mine!
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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stuartr
Single Cell Organism
32 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 10:00:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon Scarrow
As for the slashing of expenditure by the state, that is truly worrying. Just about every economist worth their salt is warning that such action could choke off any recovery and send the UK economy spiralling into a very long depression.
Not certain that there are any economist who are truely worth their salt.
Almost without exception Economists failed to predict that providing home loans to people who couldn't afford to pay them, then parcelling these loans up into small chunks and flogging them off all around the world to ensure that no-one could really know who had them, was a fundamentally stupid idea that was inevitably going to end in tears.
I don't recall hearing any economist arguing that ever increasing house prices were not sustainable, that there would come a point where first time buyers would no longer be able to afford to buy their own house, and that this would lead to problems in the housing market.
I don't recall hearing any economist arguing that once the RBOS ended up with a balance sheet containing more assets that teh GDP of the entire country, then something must be up.
Personally I have given up listening to most Economists, as the vast majority of them seem to be incapable of independent though and instead just buy into whatever the zeitgiest of the day is.
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Stomachus Grossus
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1949 Posts |
Posted - 14 October 2009 : 10:09:34 AM
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The benefits of the labour party....
Better hospitals with lower waiting times
Less crime
Better equipped schools
Minimum wage
Peace in Northern Ireland
Better materinity pay
Better paternity leave
To name but a few and as a tory its hard for me to say them but they are true, and there may be more that I cannot think of at this precise moment in time.
There is of course a flip side to all this
Huge increase in tax take to pay for it all for example smething like 80p in a £1 of petrol is tax
Huge debt that will need to be payed back at some point and will be crippling
No gold reserves
Poor relations with the middle east / arab / muslim world
A lot of off balance sheet debt from PFI and BSFF
Massive increase in public sector workers
So we the choice before is how do we get that debt burden down...
However at the same time
Moriarty: I see that ten years in Britain have not changed your Imperial Roman outlook, Caesar.
Caesar (G): True, Moriartus, always a Roman eye.
Moriarty: Will you take wine?
Caesar: No thanks, I think I'll have a half of mild and a packet of crisps.
*the Goon Show the history of Plinny the elder
www.beatthedrum.wordpress.com |
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stuartr
Single Cell Organism
32 Posts |
Posted - 14 October 2009 : 2:59:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Stomachus Grossus
The benefits of the labour party....
Better hospitals with lower waiting times
Less crime
Better equipped schools
Minimum wage
Peace in Northern Ireland
Better materinity pay
Better paternity leave
To name but a few and as a tory its hard for me to say them but they are true, and there may be more that I cannot think of at this precise moment in time.
There is of course a flip side to all this
Huge increase in tax take to pay for it all for example smething like 80p in a £1 of petrol is tax
Huge debt that will need to be payed back at some point and will be crippling
No gold reserves
Poor relations with the middle east / arab / muslim world
A lot of off balance sheet debt from PFI and BSFF
Massive increase in public sector workers
So we the choice before is how do we get that debt burden down...
That's probably quite a reasonable list, although I think that Labour can take credit for continuing the Peace Process in NI, as it actually started under John Major's government but lets not quibble too much.
My biggest objections to the labour government could be summarised thus
1) Improvements have been purchased at a price way higher than it should have been
2) Personal freedoms have been eroded as part of a ideology that sees Government as the answer to most problems, and thus the reach of government into our private lives has grown massively in the last decade undermining the sense of personal responsibility. |
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 14 October 2009 : 4:54:06 PM
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Troube is with some of these changes, they were influenced to a greater or lesser extent by the EU/USA, etc. It's quit difficult to pick out any particular changes that Labour have made off they're own backs.
"My Mom says I'm cool"
Millhouse. |
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CTL666
Invertebrate
United Kingdom
62 Posts |
Posted - 14 October 2009 : 5:38:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace
Troube is with some of these changes, they were influenced to a greater or lesser extent by the EU/USA, etc. It's quit difficult to pick out any particular changes that Labour have made off they're own backs.
They decided to allow and/or agree with such changes. It is no defence to lay the blame with the EU/USA.
D.
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'We're all in it together...' More lies
