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ToxicJR
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
 Posted - 12 October 2009 : 9:52:09 PM
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Yet another night in had me resorted to watching more channel 4 documentaries....
This one interested me on an intellectual level on HOW LITTLE some people know.
I must say before you watch this that some of their ignorant views are offensive... therefore you have been warned!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33uSVd9-xzM
It just disgusts me
lets hear your views!
ÇáÌäæä åæ ÇáåÏíÉ ÇáÊí ÃÚØíÊ áí
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Peter Croft
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
363 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 10:38:20 AM
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| To be fair, it is a partial documentary and also it is the flipside of ethnic minority special pleading. It would be pretty easy to make a documentary displaying equally dumb and prejudicial views amongst Muslim Wives, Redneck Wives, Mormon Wives etc. etc. I don't think these women are any more repugnant than any other intolerant bigots. |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 11:26:50 AM
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Clever bit of editin,g and effective. Made me want to put the scum out with the rest of the rubbish.
These women are typical of ignorant people, with their limited knowledge and blinkered worlds. Sadly, the BNP doesn't have a monopoly on such people.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2020 Posts |
 Posted - 13 October 2009 : 11:29:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter Croft
To be fair, it is a partial documentary and also it is the flipside of ethnic minority special pleading. It would be pretty easy to make a documentary displaying equally dumb and prejudicial views amongst Muslim Wives, Redneck Wives, Mormon Wives etc. etc. I don't think these women are any more repugnant than any other intolerant bigots.
Peter - please visit you local Doctor - I do not think you are feeling all that well... LOL
Yes - and I actually do agree with on this!
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2020 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 11:31:25 AM
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The more I listen/read about the news, the more I see an extrem;y large divide between those who can and will read/listen and those who can read and will NOT!
We have a distinct class developing, or has developed between those that will and those that will not!
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Peter Croft
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
363 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 12:30:24 PM
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| Very perceptive comment Warren. I think you are right. All the ethnic and social divisions are merely symptoms of a broader distinction between a class of people who empathise with others and operate on the basis of mutuality, and those who do not. The latter class is especially vulnerable to the rants of politicians who make use of their bigotry to further their own ends (and feather their own nests as we have seen). Given that is the case, then what practical steps can we take in order to promote the views of the first class over the second? I'm genuinely interested in pursuing this one so let's have some ideas s-wags. |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2020 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 12:41:52 PM
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Peter - Yes I am using your first name, I have been trying my darndest in my community to try and cross this divide and try and enable people to look to the future for themeslves and there families. And Boy have I been smashed down! Called all kinds of names under ths Sun. This has got the to point that if the Area were to be "nuked" I would not batter and eyelid! Never ever thought I'd get to that point but I did. Yes I am still trying.
The biggest problem I see here, is the will do, and will not do! We had a situation a few months back, £30k was spent on each council house to bring it up to standard, ok the passing out of contracts does need to be reviewed, Electrics, roofs, heating, and Kitchens were replaced - at no cost to the occupier. The Council/FCHO also allocated £425 to each house for distrubance allowance. The occupiers wer not happy. The amount of money was to small, (I agree to a point - electrics is very invasive) We had meetign to discuss this, about 1/3 of attendess were drunk, and only want the money there and then! And when the realised that they will not get the money, they WALKED OUT! Yes those that did not have arreasrs got the money, those that were got the difference, if any was left. No they were not happy, they did not want the house upgraded, but they wanted the money......
Now back to the original question "..what practical steps can we take in order to promote the views of the first class over the second?" I am now at a loss. ANd yes this does need to be dealt with and discussed. Prehaps Simon/Alex could set out a seprates "forum/space" for this.
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 3:39:40 PM
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Education. Unless people are educated to respect the rights of others, this sort of bigotry will never be eradicated. I also think that "education" should start at the earliest age and that governments should be pouring money into kindergatens, early learning centres and elementary schools to give kids the best start in life. Better educated kids challenging their parents' bigoted views is one way of helping a population grow out of these unacceptable views.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2020 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 4:34:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ankhsy
Education. Unless people are educated to respect the rights of others, this sort of bigotry will never be eradicated. I also think that "education" should start at the earliest age and that governments should be pouring money into kindergatens, early learning centres and elementary schools to give kids the best start in life. Better educated kids challenging their parents' bigoted views is one way of helping a population grow out of these unacceptable views.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus.
Ankhsy - what you say is correct and very true. The problem I have is not wish what you have stated, is the people it is aimed at. They have to WANT to change/improve themselves and their families. It is all to easy to live the way are and not take the responibility of getting an actuall job. (1/3 in my area would rather drink themselves stupid) Some of the unemployed havd taken themselves off to college and have gone on to UNI!.......... so why can the rest not follow that example? That is the question.
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2020 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 4:34:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ankhsy
Education. Unless people are educated to respect the rights of others, this sort of bigotry will never be eradicated. I also think that "education" should start at the earliest age and that governments should be pouring money into kindergatens, early learning centres and elementary schools to give kids the best start in life. Better educated kids challenging their parents' bigoted views is one way of helping a population grow out of these unacceptable views.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus.
Ankhsy - what you say is correct and very true. The problem I have is not wish what you have stated, is the people it is aimed at. They have to WANT to change/improve themselves and their families. It is all to easy to live the way are and not take the responibility of getting an actuall job. (1/3 in my area would rather drink themselves stupid) Some of the unemployed havd taken themselves off to college and have gone on to UNI!.......... so why can the rest not follow that example? That is the question.
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ToxicJR
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 4:48:28 PM
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I love buying many different papers to read "their" sides of the story and to review how bias it can be!!
the statement "yeah these people coming into our country and taking all our jobs..." to be fair if you cant get a job over someone who probably can't speak english very well and has no qualifications... then shouldn't the problem be you? LOL
ÇáÌäæä åæ ÇáåÏíÉ ÇáÊí ÃÚØíÊ áí |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2020 Posts |
Posted - 13 October 2009 : 7:07:48 PM
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ToxicJR - that is vey much part of the problem, the other side, is that these immirgants that are "taking" our jobs are doing sounder the radar and at lower wages.
So we must train so we can do these jobs,and accept lower pay so we have a job! That is the bitter pill a lot of would be workers are not prepared to swollow anymore.
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 14 October 2009 : 11:37:47 AM
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To play devils advocate for a minute, the law prevents some of the important discussions about our ethnic mix from being discussed. Take the BNP, for example. They have been voted to a certain level of influence through the democratic process. That must mean that they represent many of the views of their constituency. Yet they have less access to the media than many of the unelected Islamic/Homosexual/etc groups that they oppose.
This prevents a proper debate being taken up, as we only hear 1 side and can’t probe the motifs behind the other. It’s maybe not so much that some people won’t listen, it’s that they aren’t allowed to speak.
"My Mom says I'm cool"
Millhouse. |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 14 October 2009 : 2:32:54 PM
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I agree with Mace that the BNP have been given less air time than the groups they oppose. I don't know whose fault this is (government or media, or both?) but this only aids to perpetuate ignorance as to what they actually stand for, and even more important, prevents them from being shown up for the bigoted ignoramuses they are. Many people, I believe, are not aware how extreme the BNP actually are because they do not have access to their full policy backgrounds; you cannot expect blinkered people to have the rationale to ask searching questions. This inability (and the ability to think independently) is the reason they are blinkered in the first place.
So free debate should be allowed, especially on tv. It wouldn't be hard to show up the BNP in a rational debate on tv and expose them for the scum they and their policies are.
Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. |
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 14 October 2009 : 5:13:11 PM
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100% agree, Ankhsy.
And the more we ignore the valid concerns of people that voted BNP, not because they agree with everything that they stand for, but because they want SOME say on immagration, then the easier it is for the BNP to gain an almost underground following. Plus, having people 'outed' as BNP supporters, regardless if they're policemen or nurses, gives them more ammunition against letting other ethnic groups have a fair say.
I was surprised during the EU elections when a couple of my collegues said they had voted for the BNP, even though many of our friends are black or immigrants. They're reason is, I'm sure, the same as many new BNP voters: none of the other party's reflect the needs of middle aged, white, Brittish men. And they're right, up to a point. Every other party, even UKIP, is too afraid of being termed racists. Even as I type this, I'm sure I could be labelled as a racist too.
"My Mom says I'm cool"
Millhouse. |
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ToxicJR
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
39 Posts |
Posted - 14 October 2009 : 5:54:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace
100%
. Even as I type this, I'm sure I could be labelled as a racist too.
You are a racist... youre from Scotland 
haha just kidding. I know what its like, PC has gone so extreme you cant move without being deemed a racist. The newspapers are to blame for most of this, over-exaggerating stories....
ÇáÌäæä åæ ÇáåÏíÉ ÇáÊí ÃÚØíÊ áí |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 14 October 2009 : 7:29:40 PM
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I'd be labelled a racist if it was known to the PC brigade that I got a black fraudster put away for 10 years' roadbreaking - even though his main fraud was against his own government, the one he pulled on my employers was small beer by comparison.
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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Simon Scarrow
Ape
Uruguay
1048 Posts |
Posted - 19 October 2009 : 1:02:39 PM
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| If you get the chance use the iplayer from BBC to listen to Start the Week with Andrew Marr aired this morning. There was a very interesting contribution about class and race in modern Britain that touches on issues raised above. |
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 19 October 2009 : 4:15:38 PM
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I see Peter Haine’s going on about the legality of the BNP, and that the BBC give them a legitimacy that they don’t deserve.
IMHO, this is the worst way to deal with the BNP. I don’t think they should have been forced into allowing other ethnicities into their ranks, A because none of them would want to, and B it just gives them more fodder for their ‘white people aren’t treated fairly’ argument. And more importantly, as the BBC have said, if an election was called tomorrow, then the BNP can still stand.
That gives them as much right to be on the panel of Question Time as anyone else. Some people are concerned that we’ll see more BNP supporters because of this. Even though I have little respect for Jack Straw and other MP’s, I’m prepared to bet they can out class Griffen’s arguments and show him for the bigoted Ahole he is. And they also have to admit that freedom of speech means that as long as he’s not preaching hate (although it’s probably not far off) he has just as much right as someone speaking on behalf of an ethnic group.
I really wish they would stop trying to make martyrs of the BNP and let them be shown for the clowns that they are.
"My Mom says I'm cool"
Millhouse. |
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stuartr
Single Cell Organism
32 Posts |
Posted - 19 October 2009 : 5:00:31 PM
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I think if I were the BBC I would postpone the appearance of the BNP on QT pending them sorting out their constitution. While Peter Haine is essentially stirring it to prevent the BNP having a platform, the point he makes about the current illegality of the BNP is one that goes someway to undermining the BBCs position about the BNP being a legitimate party and therefore have a balid right to appear in political discussions.
As long as the BBC made it clear that the postponement is temporary until the BNP takes the necessary action to become a legitimately constituted party, after all if the BNP wants to play in the political arena, its needs to play by the rules.
Having said all that I agree with Mace that I want to see the BNP and their grubby arguments destroyed in public, but allowing the anti-facists to latch onto the current BNP constitutional issues to argue against the BBC's stance and hence close down freedom of speech is itself facist. The BBC should protect that freedom, even if it involves postponing the appearance for a month or two. |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 19 October 2009 : 7:29:27 PM
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So Peter Hain says the BNP is illegal because it doesn't want black members. Strange, he doesn't seem to have any problem with the Black Police Assocation. Maybe that one says it will admit non-black members?
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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Simon Scarrow
Ape
Uruguay
1048 Posts |
Posted - 20 October 2009 : 09:38:39 AM
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Interesting. Back in the day when I was at Uni, we had a 'black' and a 'women's' group in the student Labour party. I never quite accepted the need for such bodies although I understood the argument for them, i.e. in a society that was dominated by a white, male, heterosexual hegemony the intertia of the oppresseds' sensitivity meant that they could not express themselves freely while other 'ideologial sociation formations' (I believe that was the term) were present. That's fair enough. After all sometimes kids will only speak up in front of other kids. But we are not talking about kids here, and I would hope that we have come far enough that any adult worth their salt would speak up for themselves.
My doubts about such exclusive bodies in those days were based far more on the concern that any subdivision of an organisation like the Labour party ultimately weakened its effectiveness. After all, if society was divided into the oppressed and the oppressors then any subdivision amongst the former made them easier to pick off. Ethnic groups, women and gays had far more to gain from acting in concert than by atomising any attempt at unified action. I still think that is the case, but there is another aspect to this now, which is that these small exclusive groups now exercise an influence that is way in excess of the size of their constituency. This is because these groups have been allowed to become permanent features, rather than - as was originally intended - a transitionary process while the people concerned refined their agenda. Now we are stuck with a plethora of special interest groups which pursue narrow aims and therefore undercut any effective collective action. Worse, we have a situation in which there is an incentive for marginal groups to form up around any grievence they can contrive. They are then assured of a high social profile and access to the decision-making process as well as a measure of ideological immunity so that it unseemly to criticise the justification for such groups. Eventually, they simply become the flipside of the very thing they opposed. As in John's example of the Black Police Association.
The members of the perceived hegemonic group are prevented from setting up such exclusive cliques, i.e. the white, male, heterosexual components of society. You can imagine the howls of protest that would greet the formation of say, The White Police Association, or a Male rights group, or a 'Straight' rights pressure group. As a consequence we are stuck in a politics of disempowerment for a vast swathe of British society, which is why the BNP is garnering support. Since there is little opportunity for many to have their views represented by 'legitimate' voices, they turn to an organisation that, as they see it, will speak out for them.
It's ironic that we have created a need for the BNP by our silent submission to the ever increasing complex of validated minority voices. If we are truly against the BNP and what it stands for then we have to make a stand against those who are forever hemming in freedom of speech. I hate to say it, but we are sleepwalking into a kind of Orwellian world where we will be forced to watch what we say in case it offends some influential clique somewhere, waiting for the next opportunity to spout their grievences.
I am not sure that it would be a good idea for the BNP to be allowed on QT. I am all for open debate, but my gut feeling is that this will only serve to justify the position of all the small pressure groups opposed to the perceived hegemony (which is now little more than a straw man) and therefore increase the rate at which our ability to express ideas freely is whittled away. |
Edited by - Simon Scarrow on 20 October 2009 09:44:52 AM |
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WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
2020 Posts |
Posted - 20 October 2009 : 11:57:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon Scarrow
It's ironic that we have created a need for the BNP by our silent submission to the ever increasing complex of validated minority voices. If we are truly against the BNP and what it stands for then we have to make a stand against those who are forever hemming in freedom of speech. I hate to say it, but we are sleepwalking into a kind of Orwellian world where we will be forced to watch what we say in case it offends some influential clique somewhere, waiting for the next opportunity to spout their grievences.
Well said Simon!
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 20 October 2009 : 12:25:37 PM
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Hear, hear!
Cheers
John
Sum, ergo cogito |
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
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Mace
Small mammal
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 20 October 2009 : 4:04:39 PM
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...and compare it to this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8314322.stm
So, as long as you're not a white and straight, middle aged, wage earning man with no disabilities, you can have your own rules on membership or get priority over equally qualified people.
"My Mom says I'm cool"
Millhouse. |
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stuartr
Single Cell Organism
32 Posts |
Posted - 20 October 2009 : 5:32:50 PM
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This goes right to the heart of the debate over whether it is ever acceptable to discriminate, even if that discrimination is to right historical injustices. "Two wrongs don't make a right" is a phrase that springs to mind, and yet how else do you address imbalances?
Another issue is that the very word "discrimination" has been hijacked to be associated with the act of treating certain people as inferior based on physical, religious or sexual attributes rather than their ability or potential. To Discriminate also meant the ability to make (often) subtle distinctions between alternatives. Unfortunately it is now such a loaded word, with such strong inferences that it is the easy accusation to throw whenever a situation goes against you. "I'm being discriminated against because I'm Black/Asian/Muslim/Christian/Gay/Disabled/Fat/Poor" even when the truth is "I'm being discriminated against because I'm not as suitable/able/as good as the other people". It is often easier for people to accept that they failed due to some form of unchangeable factor, rather than because their own ability.
The arguement really needs to be about fair discrimination vs unfair discrimination (and therefore what constitutes fair) rather than this blanket anti-discrimination culture we have sleepwalked into. |
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BNP Wives
