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MartynK
Invertebrate
South Africa
116 Posts |
 Posted - 27 June 2006 : 07:19:44 AM
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There has been a lot of speculation that Churchill met Hitler in Holland after Dunkirk, probably in the autumn of 1940, to discuss a conditional surrender. Britains plight was bleak. The Treasury was just about empty and the Americans, who didn't enter the war for another 15 months, were still insisting on immediate payment for all supplies. I've read several hypotheses about the terms Hitler offered, ranging from a guarantee that Britain wouldn't be invaded, and would agree to take no further part in the war, to various forms of alliance against Russia. Some of these involved military participation, others were limited to logistical support. Any thoughts and ideas on this?
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Alex Scarrow
Ape
993 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 08:07:26 AM
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| I've never heard of this. But...what a compelling idea! Do you recall where you came across this? I've been toying with writing another WWII conspiracy tale, perhaps after the book I'm writing right now, and I've been on the hunt for compelling historically possible start points. This certainly sounds intriguing. |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 08:42:49 AM
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Rumours have been around for a long time, but I've never heard of any evidence. This would make a great book, Alex - go for it!
Cheers
John |
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AndyCanty
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6782 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 09:17:33 AM
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I Agree go for it, very compelling idea and you could weave a web around it, maybe even have a certain Chris Roland get caught up in it maybe....hehe
Could be doing a followup story of a very old Dutch person, whose died and the clear out of his hoem has uncovered startling information, but nothing solidly proof, he could have been a cleaner of gardner at the time so only saw it and wrote it in his diary......
_________________________
If all the worlds a stage?
Where's my script???
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MartynK
Invertebrate
South Africa
116 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 09:45:33 AM
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The rumours and speculation have bee around for a long time, but I don't know of any evidence per se. if there were any files, I imagine they'd be sealed till doomesday. I'll have another look through some sources and see if I can find any pointers.
The idea is plausible enough. Britain stood alone in Europe after Dunkirk. She still had the empire/commonwealth, and it's debateable if Operation Sealion could have succeeded - Overlord was touch and go four years later, despite the American manpower and logistics - but Britain was practically bankrupt and the US would not supply more materiel without payment on the nail. I believe they actually sent a warship to Cape Town to collect a consignment of South African gold at one point. I have a great admiration for Churchill, and his defiance, but there must have been times when he doubted Britain's ability to carry on fighting, unless the government managed to find a way to pay for it. I was born after the war, so obviously I don't remember, but would the public have been ready to accept an "honourable peace" or armistice in the darkest hour?
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Big Dave
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 10:54:41 AM
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The strategic postion makes it plausable and Hitler certainly would have been as he never wanted to fight GB but I don't think Churchill would have gone for it, it would have been out of character for him.
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Chuck Norris likes to knit sweaters in his free time. And by "knit", I mean "kick", and by "sweaters", I mean "babies". |
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MartynK
Invertebrate
South Africa
116 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 11:09:19 AM
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Yes, it would have been out of character, but Churchill was prone to bouts of depression throughout his life ("My black dog") and he was the Prime Minister, so he had to consider the best interests of his country. I believe that he did, unlike some of the guttersnipes who have followed in later years.
I do remember Churchill's funeral. I was twelve, and we were given the day off school to watch it on television. It was the end of an era, and I still get quite emotional at the point where the dockers lowered the jibs of their cranes as the barge passed on the Thames. |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 3:35:08 PM
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This is very interesting and reminds me of a story my Grandmother told me back in the 1970s. She said that one of the reasons Hitler and Franco met at Hendaye in October 1940 was because Franco was acting as a go-between between Hitler and Churchill to end the war, and that the planned invasion of Britain was postponed until April the following year because of those negotiations. It didn't work out because Franco wanted too much territory in return for his help. It sounded to me like just another conspiracy theory, but now that you brought it up.....
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
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mjv
Invertebrate
122 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 4:27:37 PM
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Len Deighton wrote a book in the 80's, It was called XPD, (expediant demise) centered on the making of a film about nazi loot, contained in the loot were transcripts of converations from a meeting between Churchill & Hitler. I think it claimed that Hitler & Churchill met prior to Dunkirk, hence the tanks stopping, terms were along the lines of Hitler gets Europe and we get the empire.
I read it years ago, got it on audio a couple of years ago, it's a good story but dated, cold war etc.
Your welcome to borrow the audio if you like Alex, however I've just flicked through the book and there are several footnotes cross referancing event, might be worth a read?
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MartynK
Invertebrate
South Africa
116 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 4:43:03 PM
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Didn't Len Deighton write another book called SS GB, or something along those lines, about a post war Britain occupied by the Nazis? I just can't remember if it was a negotiated occupation, or the result of an invasion, but I think it was the former.
By the way Alex, you'd better get a move on. I might just write this book myself! |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
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mjv
Invertebrate
122 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 5:46:44 PM
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| SS-GB was post invasion lots of info about the stop-lines, very good read if I remember. Might have to look in the loft for it! |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 7:16:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mjv
Len Deighton wrote a book in the 80's, It was called XPD, (expediant demise) centered on the making of a film about nazi loot, contained in the loot were transcripts of converations from a meeting between Churchill & Hitler. I think it claimed that Hitler & Churchill met prior to Dunkirk, hence the tanks stopping, terms were along the lines of Hitler gets Europe and we get the empire.
If I remember rightly, Churchill became Prime Minister in May 1940. Would Hitler have met with Churchill before he became PM? It would have been poretty tight to do so between Churchill becoming PM and Dunkirk.
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8794 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 8:14:35 PM
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An armistice between Britain and Germany at that point would have had some interesting repercussions that Alex could have fun with. For a start, what about all the French, Czech, Polish, Belgian etc troops who'd come to Britain? The Navy ships that some had brought with them? Not to mention the civilan refugees? And without Britain in the war, could Hitler have turned east and been successful in Russia? Or would he have blown it all by trying to seize the Suez Canal anyway? Oh Alex, I really would like to read your version!
Cheers
John |
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mjv
Invertebrate
122 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 8:32:51 PM
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He became Prime Minister 10th May. Evacuation started 26th May continued 'til 4th June Plenty of time for him to land at a small airfield in France.
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mjv
Invertebrate
122 Posts |
Posted - 27 June 2006 : 8:41:58 PM
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| On the SS_GB vein, another book I read All the King's men - Gordon Stevens , one of those alternative history jobs, but had lots of factual information on the Auxilary Units. Another visit to the loft! |
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MartynK
Invertebrate
South Africa
116 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2006 : 05:56:24 AM
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I think this meeting probably took place some time after Dunkirk, if it happened at all. Assuming a peace settlement was on the cards, Hitler would have wanted a decisive victory to leave Britain on the ropes, as an added incentive to negotiate an armistice. He may also have been motivated to make an offer by the doubtful prospects of Sealion succeeding, after the Luftwaffe failed to break British resistance and take control of the air over the Channel.
Hitler probably stopped the Panzer advance because Goering believed that the Luftwaffe could defeat the British without risking the tanks any further - they were suffering a lot of casualties and mechanical breakdowns - and Hitler was still planning to invade central France where they would have been needed.
Could Hitler have conquered Russia with British support, or taking a passive role? I doubt it. Russia is vast, the weather is shocking for much of the year and she had practically unlimited reserves of manpower and far greater industrial/manufacturing capacity than the West realised at the time. |
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Mark_Warren
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
226 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2006 : 08:33:57 AM
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I seem to remember reading something about this meeting myself, although my memory seems to think it was Lord Halifax that met Hitler, not Churchill.
There were dicussions before all this potentially using Mussolini as a indermediary, and an offer that Germany would halt the war if all its old boundaries we reinstated, France disarmed etc. |
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Big Dave
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2006 : 10:09:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mjv
On the SS_GB vein, another book I read All the King's men - Gordon Stevens , one of those alternative history jobs, but had lots of factual information on the Auxilary Units. Another visit to the loft!
Also there is The Leader by Guy Walters.
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Chuck Norris likes to knit sweaters in his free time. And by "knit", I mean "kick", and by "sweaters", I mean "babies". |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7861 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2006 : 11:27:37 AM
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Halifax met Hitler early on, in 1937 I think. I don't recall a second meeting.
Correspondence of the Queen Mother shows that she supported Halifax over Churchill and preferred him to be PM. I read somewhere that Halifax would have sued for peace with Hitler on the condition that the monarchy was allowed to continue. I seem to remember that the Queen Mother had her fingers in this pie, and she doesn't come out of it smelling of roses.
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
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Edited by - Ankhsy on 28 June 2006 11:28:15 AM |
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mjv
Invertebrate
122 Posts |
Posted - 28 June 2006 : 2:16:48 PM
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I thought the Panzers stopped either 'cos they were knackered, or didn't have sufficient infantry support to continue the advance.
Regards Sealion, I'm sure it was wargamed at Sandhurst and I could be very wrong but I don't think it was that successful. |
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Big Dave
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
234 Posts |
Posted - 29 June 2006 : 2:48:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mjv
I thought the Panzers stopped either 'cos they were knackered, or didn't have sufficient infantry support to continue the advance.
Regards Sealion, I'm sure it was wargamed at Sandhurst and I could be very wrong but I don't think it was that successful.
Correct in the 70s. They got to the outskirts of London but then were counter attacked and beaten.
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Chuck Norris likes to knit sweaters in his free time. And by "knit", I mean "kick", and by "sweaters", I mean "babies". |
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drosdelnoch
Small mammal
United Kingdom
484 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2006 : 9:21:37 PM
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Sounds interesting, I know that we nearly signed up with the Germans for the second world war but things happened so we didnt. The other thing worthy of using was the British SS unit, now it is a little know unit that many have tried to cover up. When a British soldier was captured in the second World War thier officers used to advise them to sign up for the "training" to become an SS officer in that unit. It was a way to guarantee descent food for as a long as you could hack it and they weeded you out.
That also may be of use Alex.
Legends Never Die, Druss Lives! |
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Alex Scarrow
Ape
993 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2006 : 10:35:17 PM
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I vaguely recall seeing some sort of documentatary on this, I think they were called something like Britisches Frei-Korps,(British Free corp) a part of the Waffen SS. i think they only recruited about 30-40 men. They set up a HQ for this regiment, hoping to amass several hundred, recruited, as you say, from the POW camps. They had this groovy little union jack shoulder patch.
IIRC, the only action they saw was a limited engagement defending some German town from the Ruskies near the end of the war. |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 2:39:52 PM
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http://www.thehistorychannel.co.uk/site/tv_guide/full_details/British_history/programme_757.php
The Brits Who Fought For Hitler
Tue September 12th at 9:00am
Tue September 12th at 4:00pm
A nation reviles treachery, perhaps now more than ever. But the chronicles of recent history have ignored the most shameful episode of World War Two. The Britisches Freikorps unit of the Waffen SS served alongside the Nazis on the Eastern Front. Its members wore the death’s head insignia and took German rank. They helped defend Berlin even as Hitler retreated to his bunker. But each and every member was recruited from British, Canadian, Australian and South African soldiers who volunteered to betray their country.
Recognising the potential propaganda value of the unit, the Nazis ordered 800 SS uniforms with Union Jack arm badges. Most Allied prisoners of war ignored or resisted recruitment tactics ranging from leaflet bombardment to bribery and torture. But some 200 Allied prisoners answered the Nazi call. Some were motivated by greed, or by sympathies with the fascist cause. Others were simply described by intelligence files of the time as of ‘weak character’, and found the opportunities offered by the Germans to drink and womanise too tempting.
The British Free Corps was itself betrayed by one of its number who joined only to feed MI5 with information. John Brown, the quartermaster of a camp at Genshagen. As Germany collapsed, Brown’s information allowed the Allies to round up the traitors who often posed as fleeing PoWs. They were prosecuted and sentenced at court martial and treason trials. The intelligence files were quietly closed and access to the devastating information within was restricted. There was no cover-up, rather a conspiracy of indifference. For the first time on British Television, the British SS soldiers speak of their treachery, and their part in a failed German propaganda coup.
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Stomachus Grossus
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1949 Posts |
Posted - 19 September 2006 : 12:41:33 PM
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I have read a fair bit about Churchill and there was no way he would have given in to hitler. There would have had to have been a coup in britian for it to happen.
Inetersting premise though.
Sealoin was a none starter. There would be no way of getting the home fleet out of the way even with a full luftwaffer fighting against them. They might have had air superiority but not air supremesy and the fleet would have blown the landing barges to pieces.
Churchill was a away of this and so were the german high command.
But once again praise God for the channel!
Urino -are!!!!
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Deva
Dinosaur
279 Posts |
Posted - 22 September 2006 : 3:04:56 PM
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Hate to be a killjoy, but Robert Harris's excellent Fatherland had a similar start point i.e Britain and Germany had agreed a peace to leave the German's free to fight the Russians. Fatherland, set in the 60's with an ageing Hitler still fighting in the East, then moved into another area (was the Final Solution really final?)
If you haven't read Fatherland, then do. It's superb. |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 22 September 2006 : 3:17:29 PM
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i found it a bit ...average...but then i could only ever picture rutger hauer
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Deva
Dinosaur
279 Posts |
Posted - 22 September 2006 : 3:34:36 PM
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| Ah, watching the film before reading the book...... Especially if someone as wooden as Rutger plays the hero. |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
14676 Posts |
Posted - 22 September 2006 : 3:38:16 PM
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yep bad idea i know...but it was too late at that point
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Stomachus Grossus
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1949 Posts |
Posted - 25 September 2006 : 10:14:15 AM
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HAvent read it ill nab a copy and come back to you
Urino -are!!!!
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Churchill and Hitler - did Britain consider a pact
