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salve
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
32 Posts |
 Posted - 01 August 2006 : 3:26:15 PM
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Sorry if this an old subject, but I am reading a V Good book called Atilla by William Napier. Well in this book the two key Romans are a Centurion and a Lieutenant. It is set during Emporor Honorius' time so is at the end of the roman empire, but the book appears to be well written and well researched, but the bit with the Lieutenant being in charge of the Centurion does not make sense - I didn't think such a rank exisited!
Is it a mistake I should just accept or is W Napier right!!!
thanks
Rich
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13892 Posts |
Posted - 01 August 2006 : 3:33:58 PM
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no idea to the answer but i think its a mistake on his part. as to his book, book 2 is due out soon, im trying to get some signed copies of it.
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7087 Posts |
Posted - 01 August 2006 : 3:45:25 PM
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Haven't we had this discussions before? Or was it in another forum? The word Lieutenant is Middle English (circa 12th century onwards, originating from the Old French (circa 8th century AD)words Lieu (in place of) and Tenant (landholding vassal to the King).
There was no such rank in the Roman Military.
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
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AndyCanty
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6629 Posts |
Posted - 01 August 2006 : 3:59:46 PM
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i'm sue we've had the discussion after Parm and I read it early on, i think it's a mistake on his part, which does show a hole in his research. simon would know..hehe
_________________________
If all the worlds a stage?
Where's my script???
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Carus Andiae
Small mammal
United Kingdom
667 Posts |
Posted - 01 August 2006 : 4:23:06 PM
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The rank in the Roman Army normally equated with Lieutenant is Optio Ad Spem Ordines (loosely, 'Centurion's Choice' - i.e. Cato's rank in the early 'Eagle' books), but this is a rank which had dropped out of use by Honorius' time. Very little is known about late Imperial ranks, apart from the titles and their order of seniority. A possible list of late Roman ranks, with their proposed early Roman and approximate modern ranks might be as follows:
Late Roman - Early Roman - Modern
Tiro - Tiro - Recruit
Miles/Eques - Miles/Eques - Private/Trooper
Circitor - Tesserarius - Sergeant
Biarchus - Optio - Lieutenant
Centenarius - Centurion - Captain.
Ducenarius - Pilus Prior (leading Centurion) - Senior Captain
Senator - Primus Pilum (Chief Centurion) - Major
Primicerinus - Tribunus Laticlavius (Senior Tribune) - Lieutenant Colonel
Praefectus - Legatus Legionis (Legate) - Colonel
N.B.: Apart from the titles and order of seniority, this is only my interpretation or early Roman and modern equivalents.
Thus the 'Lieutenant' should actually be a Senior Captain (Ducenarius) or even Major (Senator - the military title should not be confused with the political rank, which appears to have no connection).
I think the confusion arises from the fact that Centurions are sometimes thought of as NCOs, since they were usually promoted from the ranks (though they could be Equestrian appointments), and are therefore sometimes seen as Sergeants. This is to retrospectively apply modern officering systems on the Roman Army - which had no such things as 'Commissions' as such - and to call a Centurion a Sergeant is to give a misleading impression of his duties, which were much more akin to those of a Captain.
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"Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat" - Any man can fly when he rides on the back of an eagle |
Edited by - Carus Andiae on 01 August 2006 4:26:32 PM |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7087 Posts |
Posted - 01 August 2006 : 10:27:48 PM
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I misunderstood. I thought the question was whether the rank of 'lieutant' (or a direct translation e.g. locum tenens) existed in the Roman army. I didn't realise it was a question of comparable ranking.
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
Posted - 01 August 2006 : 10:45:46 PM
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I wouldn't disagree with the junior rank equivalents, but I think from Centurion upward there's a mismatch. A Legion at full strength would be the equivalent of a Major General's command, with any large vexillation being the equivalent of a Brigadier's command - both based on the numbers of men under command. That would mean that, working downward, we have:
Legate - Major General
Senior Tribune - Brigadier
Junior Tribune - full Colonel
Primus Pilus - Lieutenant Colonel
Pilus Prior - Major
Centurion - Captain - the equivalent of a modern British Company commander.
But I'm not quite sure how the Praefectus Castri fits into the rank structure, he was far more than a Quartermaster/Supply Officer.
Cheers
John |
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Carus Andiae
Small mammal
United Kingdom
667 Posts |
Posted - 02 August 2006 : 6:36:01 PM
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There's always going to be disagreements about this since in spite of superficial similarities the Roman Army really didn't work like a modern one. I would actually tend to agree with you, John, but I was trying to equate Early Imperial Legions with Late Imperial Legions - the latter in fact being more the size of Early Imperial Auxiliary Cohorts - so I was taking the Legion as representing a modern regiment rather than the Division the Early Imperial version was more like.
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"Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat" - Any man can fly when he rides on the back of an eagle |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
Posted - 02 August 2006 : 7:17:05 PM
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I'd have to agree with you on the Late ranking, Carus, and I admit that I know little of that period so was comparing the early to middle Imperial period with a modern British equivalent in size. Do you have any ideas about rank structure for the Republican period? And we haven't considered the cavalry ranks at all. Come to that, I've no idea whether the specialist engineers, etc, had differing ranks.
Cheers
John |
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salve
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
32 Posts |
Posted - 02 August 2006 : 7:23:52 PM
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Hi - and thanks for the good replies.
To get to the point, I think maybe I am becoming a bit of a "spotter" and I should just enjoy the book, however it annoys me that the author has clearly spent a lot of time on this book but really screwed up on such a basic bit of research!
I was thinking that maybe as the book appears so well researched, the bit about a Lt may be true as it was written about a time at the end of the empire when things were very different, but I still cant get over such a simple screw up when he has done so much research elsewhere.....
My wife just called me a nerd and said its just fiction - so just enjoy it, maybe she is right!!! |
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salve
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
32 Posts |
Posted - 02 August 2006 : 7:26:03 PM
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| PS - I am a humble Army Warrant Officer, what would my equal be!!?? |
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Carus Andiae
Small mammal
United Kingdom
667 Posts |
Posted - 03 August 2006 : 4:25:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John Prigent
I'd have to agree with you on the Late ranking, Carus, and I admit that I know little of that period so was comparing the early to middle Imperial period with a modern British equivalent in size. Do you have any ideas about rank structure for the Republican period? And we haven't considered the cavalry ranks at all. Come to that, I've no idea whether the specialist engineers, etc, had differing ranks.
Cheers
John
Specialists were rated as Immunii (from the fact that they were 'immune' to normal fatigues) and divided into their respective jobs - achitecti were artillery engineers, ballistari were artillerymen (and in the Late Empire crossbowmen) and so on. I'm not sure if there was an internal rank system. Medical staff were certainly organised:
Optio Valentudinarius (Administrator)
Medicus Legionis (Chief Physician)
Medici Castrorum (Camp Medics - 'Consultants'?)
Medici Duplicarius (Doctors on double pay)
Medici Ordinarii (Doctors)
Chirurgi (Surgeons)
Capsarii (Field medics, from the Capsa or bandage box)
Noscomi (Male nurses)
Milites Medici (Medical orderlies, rated as Immunii).
(NB: The order of seniority is a bit vague)
Cavalry ranks:
Praefectus Alae/P. Equitum - Commander
Decurion: Cavalry centurian, commanding a turma (troop).
Duplicarius: Cavalry Optio, second I/C to the Decurion.
Sesquiplicarius: Cavalry Tesserarius.
Eques: Trooper.
I think in the Late Empire cavalry and infantry ranks were interchangeable, apart from Miles/Eques.
Then there is the vexed question of the Navy:
Praefectus Classicus - Admiral
Navarch - Commodore
Trirarch - Galley commander (originally applying to commanders of triremes, but under the Empire adopted by all captains. In civillian life a navarch was a captain, bbut the post was that of a squadron commodore in the Navy).
Then it gets all rather uncertain.
Marines:
Centurio Classicus: Captain of Marines
Optio Classicus: Lieutenant of Marines
Classiarius: Marine
Again, that's all we know but the system was actually probably similar to the Army, but with the Centurion as senior Marine officer about a ship.
After the Marian Reforms, I think the Republican Army followed a more or less identical rank system to that of the Early Empire. I'll have to get back to you on the pre-Marian Army.
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"Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat" - Any man can fly when he rides on the back of an eagle |
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Carus Andiae
Small mammal
United Kingdom
667 Posts |
Posted - 03 August 2006 : 4:31:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by salve
PS - I am a humble Army Warrant Officer, what would my equal be!!??
I don't think there is a direct equivalent - probably the Optio would encompass the role of Warrant Officer as well as Lieutenant.
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"Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat" - Any man can fly when he rides on the back of an eagle |
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Snowdragon
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
49 Posts |
Posted - 04 August 2006 : 4:25:42 PM
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Came across this sometime ago sorry if it is long, but it is interesting, honest it is.
Legionary officers
The following list describes the system of officers which developed within the legions from the Marian reforms (104 BC) until the military reforms of Diocletian (circa 290).
Senior officers
Legatus legionis: The overall legionary commander. This post was generally appointed by the emperor to a man who was usually a former Tribunus Laticlavius and held command for 3 or 4 years, although could serve for a much longer period. In a Roman province with only one legion, the Legatus was also the provincial governor and in provinces with multiple legions, each legion had a Legatus and the provincial governor had overall command of them all. This office was similar to the modern Major General.
Tribunus Laticlavius: Named for the broad striped toga worn by men of senatorial rank, this tribune was appointed by the Emperor or the Senate. Though generally quite young and less experienced than the Tribuni Angusticlavii, he served as second in command of the legion, behind the Legate. This office was similar to the modern Brigadier General.
Praefectus Castrorum: The camp Prefect. Generally he was a long serving veteran who had been promoted through the ranks of the centurions and was 3rd in overall command. This rank was similar to the modern Colonel.
Tribuni Angusticlavii: Each legion had five military tribunes of equestrian (knight) class citizens. They were in many cases career officers and served many of the important administrative tasks of the Legion, but still served in a full tactical command function during engagements. This rank was similar to the modern Lieutenant Colonel.
Primus Pilus: The "First File" or "first spearman" was the commanding centurion of the first cohort and the senior centurion of the entire Legion. When the Primus Pilus retired he was guaranteed entry into the Equestrian Class. He was paid 60 times the base wage. This rank was similar to a modern Major, but of the highest degree.
Mid-level officers
Centurions: Each legion had 59 or 60 centurions, one to command each century of the 10 cohorts. They were the backbone of the professional army and were the career soldiers who ran the day to day life of the soldiers as well as issuing commands in the field. They were generally moved up from the ranks, but in some cases could be direct appointments from the Emperor or other higher ranking officials. The cohorts were ranked from the First to the Tenth and the Century within each cohort ranked from 1 to 6, with only 5 Century in the First Cohort (For a total of 59 Centurions and the Primus Pilus). The Century that each Centurion commanded was a direct reflection of his rank. (Command of the First Century of the First Cohort was the highest and the 6th Century of the 10th Cohort was the lowest). This rank is compared to the modern Captain.
Primi Ordines: The five Centurions of the First Cohort, and included the Primus Pilus. They, excluding the Primus Pilus, were paid 30 times the base wage. This rank is similar to the modern Captain, but senior to all other Centurions, save the Primus Pilus and Pilus Prior.
The Pilus Prior: The ten Centurions of the First Centuires of each of the ten Cohorts were called Pilus Prior and were the most senior Centurion within their respective cohort. While the legion was in battle formation, the Pilus Prior was given command of the entire cohort, with each of the Centurions as his lieutenants. The Primus Pilus was also a Pilus Prior, only the most senior of all the Centurions within the Legions. These positions were usually held by experienced veteran soldiers who had been moved up within the ranks. This rank is similar to the modern Major, but subordinate to the Primus Pilus.
Low-level officers
Optio: One for each Centurion (59), they were appointed by the Centurion from within the ranks to act as his second in command. Paid twice the basic wage. This rank is similar to the modern First Lieutenant.
Tesserarius: (Guard Commander) Again there were 59 of these, or one for each Century. They acted seconds to the Optios. Paid one and a half times the basic wage. This rank is similar to the modern Second Lieutenant.
Decurion: Led a Contubernium, or "Tent Group", of 8 to 10 men. Each Century had 8 to 10 of these. Paid one and a quarter times basic wage. This rank is similar to the non-commissioned officer Sergeant.
Aquilifer: A single position within the Legion. The Aquilifer was the Legion's Standard or Aquila (Eagle) bearer and was an enormously important and prestigious position. Losing the aquila was considered a great dishonor. The next step up would be in a post as a Centurion. He was paid twice the basic wage.
Signifer: Each Century had a Signifer (59). He was responsible for the men's pay and savings, and the standard bearer for the Centurial Signum, a spear shaft decorated with medallions and often topped with an open hand to signify the oath of loyalty taken by the soldiers. It was this banner that the men from each individual Century would rally around. A soldier could also gain the position of Discentes signiferorum, or standard bearer in training. He was paid twice the basic wage.
Cornicen (Horn blower): Worked hand in hand with the Signifer drawing the attention of the men to the Centurial Signum and issuing the audible commands of the officers.
Imaginifer: Carried the Standard bearing the image of the Emperor as a constant reminder of the troop's loyalty to him.
Cry God for Harry, England and St George |
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Carus Andiae
Small mammal
United Kingdom
667 Posts |
Posted - 04 August 2006 : 5:07:59 PM
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And so we come at last the the murky waters of the pre-Marian Armies. Take a deep breath as we take the plunge... 
NB: Words in Italics are confirmed or possible rank titles.
Tribal Army (8th century BC): 'Romulus's Army'. Rome was divided into 30 curiae, which were grouped into tens making three tribes. Each curia provided 100 men to the army, grouped into 1000 strong tribal bands each led by a Tribunus Militum.
Hoplite Army (6th century BC): Based around centuries, so first appearence of Centuriones? Divided into 5 classes: Class 1 conprised 40 Senior Centuries (for home defence) and 40 Junior Centuries (for the field army). Classes 2, 3 and 4 was composed os 20 senior and junior centuries, and Class five of 30 centuries plus 2 additional centuries of horn blowers and trumpeters. Each Class had progressively lighter equipment, thus #1 were armed as Hoplites, whilst #5 were slingers. The classes were divided into phalanxes of 40 and later 60 centuries.
Manipular Army (4th century BC): Based on the Southern Italian Samnite Army, composed of ?15 Maniples. Each Maniple was divided into three troop types - Hastati(front line troops) armed with pila and scuta, Principes (second line troops) armed with thrusting spears and scuta, and Triarii (third line troops), armed with long spears. These last group were drawn from veterans, regarded as senior to the Hastati and Principes, and received better pay. In addition were Rosarii (skirmishers). The generic term from a Private was Manipulares; a general MAY have held the title Imperator.
Pre-Marian Legionary Army (3rd century BC): Composed of four Urban Legions, in addition to a varying number of field legions in wartime (20+ during the Second Punic War, for example). There were 6 Tribunii per legion, divided into pairs, each pair commanding the legion for two months by rotation. A legion numbered 4,200 men, divided into 10 cohorts of 420. Each cohort was divided into three Maniples - 1 x 60 strong (Triarii), 1 x 120 strong (Principes); 1 x 120 strong (Hastati), plus 120 Velites (skirmishers). Each Maniple was divided into two centuries, commanded by a Centurio Prior and a Centurio Posterior respectively. The First Century, First Maniple of Triarii was commanded by the chief centurion, the ?Primus Pilum Prior. Each century had an Optio and possibly a Tesserarius. Orderlies serving senior officers were entitled Hypéretai. There was one Standard Bearer (?Signifer) per Manipal, and at least one other, carrying the Legion Standard (not necessarily an Eagle at this point). Privates were termed Gregari.
Post-Marian Army (2nd century BC): Marius' reforms of 107-104BC produced an army essentially identical to that of the Early Imperial era. However, Tribunes still commanded legions. Even in Julius Casear's day, though Legati were increasingly being given legion commands, they were temporary postings, often drawn from ex-governors and generals, to provide military experience in times of war. Each century contained 100 men - 80 heavy infantry (Milites) and 20 light infantry (velites).
The Emperor Augustus dropped the velites in the 1st century AD or BC (though skirmishers, known as antesignani, continued to be used and were eventually formalised in the ?2nd century AD as lanceari) and also made Legati the permanant commanders of legions.
I'm not even going to attempt to give the modern equivalents of the Republican ranks!
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"Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat" - Any man can fly when he rides on the back of an eagle |
Edited by - Carus Andiae on 05 August 2006 4:07:45 PM |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
Posted - 04 August 2006 : 5:49:37 PM
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Wow! Carus and Snowdragon, you have answered so many questions that we all owe you deep thanks.
Cheers
John |
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Nísia
Small mammal
Portugal
661 Posts |
Posted - 04 August 2006 : 9:09:25 PM
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| With all this ranks what's centurion rank Cato and Macro belong? |
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Carus Andiae
Small mammal
United Kingdom
667 Posts |
Posted - 05 August 2006 : 4:22:28 PM
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Well, in the first book Macro is commander of the 6th century, 1st Cohort, is he not? Which would make him an Hastatus Posterior.
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"Licat volare si super tergum aquila volat" - Any man can fly when he rides on the back of an eagle |
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Allectus
Single Cell Organism
2 Posts |
Posted - 09 August 2006 : 10:36:09 PM
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Well i have to disagree. ok, so trying to equate ranks based on some duties is one way of doing it, doing so based on career paths and (at least until quite recently in the British army) class is another. The Romans had quite clear career paths for enlisted men and different paths for the equestrian ranks.
To my mind an optio is quite clearly something akin to a corporal or sergeant. A centurion rather like a Warrant Officer 2nd class, primus pilus a Warrant Officer 1st class, camp prefect a GSM (garrison sergeant major, a WO1 but more senior).
In many respects the tasks carried out by the optios and centurions are the same as those of our modern army's senior NCOs, for example discipline, welfare and care of their men, rations, training etc.
Imagine if you will a modern British infantry battalion, remove all the officers leaving only the CO, 2 i\c and a handful of staff officers like the adjutant. Leaving the CSM of each company to command as well as carrying out his usual duties and the platoon sergeants to command their platoons (which in practice they do anyway).
It's a little difficult to explain or understand for those that haven't served in the army but i hope i get over the general gist of what i'm getting at.
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AndyCanty
Homosapien
United Kingdom
6629 Posts |
Posted - 09 August 2006 : 10:46:49 PM
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Welcome Allectus,
Feel free to disagree, we're pretty open here and wont take any offense (long as it stays impartial )
IMHO from someone who hasnt served, i think much of the military ranking (even though the names have changed) is much the same, just more scope for advancment etc etc.
maybe with some ranks moved around, added or removed, but the basic structure remains, NCOs run the army, and the officer "class" decide what happens on the bigger scale..
_________________________
If all the worlds a stage?
Where's my script???
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13892 Posts |
Posted - 09 August 2006 : 11:05:19 PM
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welcome allectus
good first post and i agree with what your saying, andy also has a point in that we possibly have more rankings just so we can be seen to advance more in the modern army
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
Posted - 10 August 2006 : 7:41:56 PM
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Welcome Allectus! You're absolutely right about the importance of the NCOs to a modern army, they run the place and try to keep the officers more or less on the right lines. (Though one of my Sergeants got kicked out for using his squad of recruits to paint his own house, and another was sent to the glasshouse for selling fake discharges to soldiers who thought they'd been legitimately buying themselves out of service). The Roman/modern analogies do break down over this, but I still think the equating of Optios, Centurions etc to our modern officer ranks is closer to the responsibilities they carrier.
Cheers
John |
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Bat King
Invertebrate
United Kingdom
148 Posts |
Posted - 12 August 2006 : 3:32:42 PM
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I'd tend to agree with Allectus that the Centurions and such are better compared to NCOs as the Roman army was organised by Social Status.
But really the times are so different direct comparison is almost impossible.
I've also read Attilla. Enjoyed it a lot and just ignored the incorrect ranking ;) |
Edited by - Bat King on 12 August 2006 3:33:44 PM |
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Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13892 Posts |
Posted - 29 August 2006 : 2:28:52 PM
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what would be on the illyrian standard? would it say Legio II Illyrian ??
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
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Nísia
Small mammal
Portugal
661 Posts |
Posted - 04 September 2006 : 10:27:34 PM
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| Simon said an otpio have a white shoulder pacht to show his rank, but I read they used a "helmet somtines with black and white plumes so they could be distinguished among the soldiers". But in your storys I don't read anything that Cate had used one helmet like taht. Is this true? |
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John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 12:58:55 PM
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I'm puzzled about one rank quote in Medicus (I'll pop a review onto the Books page now I've finished reading it). Who or what was "Second Spear" in a Legion? The story is set at Deva in 117AD, in and around a military hospital, and the Second Spear of the Legion seems to be in charge while the Legate is absent - though the Camp Prefect is also mentioned. Can it be a mistake for Primus Pilus?
Cheers
John |
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Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7087 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 1:58:12 PM
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I think that is a mistake for 'princeps secundus'. But that means centurion of the second cohort, not second [spear] centurion.
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
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Snowdragon
Single Cell Organism
United Kingdom
49 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 4:06:24 PM
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Though if the Primus Pilus was known as The "First File" or "first spearman" perhaps it would be logical for the second Centurion to be know as the second spearman.
Cry God for Harry, England and St George |
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