| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
 Posted - 04 September 2006 : 1:43:42 PM
|
Apparently right in the middles of Amman. I'm glad you're home and out of harm's way, Simon.
Cheers
John
|
|
|
Stomachus Grossus
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1860 Posts |
Posted - 04 September 2006 : 2:52:05 PM
|
Still could be worse could have gone to miami la or new york much more likely to get shot there
Urino -are!!!!
 |
 |
|
|
Simon Scarrow
Small mammal
Uruguay
777 Posts |
Posted - 04 September 2006 : 10:21:37 PM
|
Very true Stomachus. As a student I spent a very unpleasant night in Miami at the Trailways coach station. At midnight they were closing the place, and wanted to throw me out. As I stepped out of the door there was a gunshot down the street and I ducked back in. I told the manager that there was no way I was going to spend the night on the street and he had better do something about it or I'd bust the place up just to get arrested and put in the relative safety of a cell. Anyway, he called a cop friend and a patrol car drew up to take me to the Greyhound station. The cops were friendly enough but some of their stories were pretty hair-raising.
The event in Amman saddens me greatly. It's going to hit their badly needed tourist trade and in truth Jordan is as safe a place as I have ever been. I was far more nervous about Malia in Crete this summer for instance. Those chavs can cut up badly (indeed they did - nearly killed a local of duty policeman and his son). I hate to say it, while the jury is out, but it looks to me like this is yet more blood on the hands of Blair. That man must go, before he endangers us any further. |
|
|
|
John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
Posted - 04 September 2006 : 11:18:51 PM
|
Hear, hear!
Cheers
John |
|
|
|
Stomachus Grossus
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1860 Posts |
Posted - 04 September 2006 : 11:21:04 PM
|
Ah but then look at the likely replacements..... no good choices are they.
Urino -are!!!!
|
|
|
|
Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7087 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2006 : 09:33:29 AM
|
I heard this morning that British tourists were specifically tagetted in Amman. Is this true?
Whenever I travel, I make sure I steer clear of American parties, and I wear nothing that carries any sign of American flag (which is a pain because I like my Ralph Lauren stuff). I also do not speak English unless it is absolutely necessary. Do I now have to start avoiding the British?
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
|
|
|
|
John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2006 : 09:41:54 AM
|
Judging from Alex's holiday experience you should _always_ try to avoid the English on holiday, Ankhsy.
Cheers
John |
|
|
|
Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13892 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2006 : 11:00:39 AM
|
oh thats harsh john...just avoid the chavs..they are easy to spot by the low knuckle dragging of the arms
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
|
|
|
|
John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2006 : 12:29:20 PM
|
There's a difference, Ankhsy? The English abroad seem to tend to cluster together in bars and places that "don't serve that foreign muck but proper English food - Pizza, Curry, that kind of thing. Go upcountry instead, to where the _British_ are on holiday sightseeing instead of drinking.
Cheers
John |
|
|
|
Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7087 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2006 : 1:03:00 PM
|
The British tourists you describe tend to cluster in chavland ghettos abroad. I'm a solitary independent traveller and I avoid those areas like the plague anyway. Unfortunately, one tends to bump into roaming groups of them in capital cities, but you can usually spot them a mile away and give them a wide berth.
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
|
|
|
|
John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2006 : 1:32:37 PM
|
Wasn't tha waht I said? Or are you agreeing with me (wow!)?
But yes, it's usually easy to avoid the chavs - though not if some of them are on your escorted tour. They do come from other countries too, of course. Some Yanks can be revolting in their parochialism, putting the English ones into the shadow. I heard one complain "They charge two bucks for a German beer!" in a place where his waiter was earning less than that for a day's work. Or the one who called "Hey, boy" and snapped his fingers for a drink in the hotel bar, then wondered why he was ignored and had nothing to drink for the rest of the afternoon. He asked my wife (who was waiting for my business meeting to end) how she was getting served while he was ignored!
Cheers
John |
|
|
|
Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7087 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2006 : 7:05:10 PM
|
Yes, I think I'm agreeing with you...am I? I've lost my grip on this thread. Time for a drink.
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
|
|
|
|
WarrenH
Homosapien
United Kingdom
1778 Posts |
Posted - 05 September 2006 : 7:50:21 PM
|
What will that be, Cappuccino/Irish - Lots of it/Tanzania coffee?
"Ying tong, ying tong, what a miss mash of cods wallop and gungafof. Never in my life have I had the pleasure of reading a concoction of trype and onions." |
|
|
|
The Delayer
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
216 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 09:44:47 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Simon Scarrow
Very true Stomachus. As a student I spent a very unpleasant night in Miami at the Trailways coach station. At midnight they were closing the place, and wanted to throw me out. As I stepped out of the door there was a gunshot down the street and I ducked back in. I told the manager that there was no way I was going to spend the night on the street and he had better do something about it or I'd bust the place up just to get arrested and put in the relative safety of a cell. Anyway, he called a cop friend and a patrol car drew up to take me to the Greyhound station. The cops were friendly enough but some of their stories were pretty hair-raising.
The event in Amman saddens me greatly. It's going to hit their badly needed tourist trade and in truth Jordan is as safe a place as I have ever been. I was far more nervous about Malia in Crete this summer for instance. Those chavs can cut up badly (indeed they did - nearly killed a local of duty policeman and his son). I hate to say it, while the jury is out, but it looks to me like this is yet more blood on the hands of Blair. That man must go, before he endangers us any further.
With all due respect Simon your talking cobblers how is a Jordanian gunman yelling "God is great" as he is killing infidels (from his perspective) Tony Blair's fault??? I am no fan of Blair but thats simply ridiclous any more than a a pyshcopath like Zaquiwi (Another Jordanian) who crossed over into Iraq with the aim of creating civil war and wipping out the Shia population massacaring thousands Jordans fault.
Naval gazers need to realise they attack because of there religion killing infidels is doing gods will after all and the coming paradise in the next life and the Virgin wives it brings.
Attacks like this have been happeing for decades Anyone remember Luxor in the 90's. Its just how these people think. |
|
|
|
Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7087 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 10:49:37 AM
|
It's now very hard to tell the difference between attacks like these which would have happened without Iraq (as in Luxor) or aggravated because of Iraq. There is no doubt in my mind that the invasion of Iraq has made international terrorism all the worse and resulted in an explosion on copycat attacks against foreigners all around the world (which have been blamed on Al Qaida by governments because it is in their interest to have it seen as an international terror organisation).
Lunatics like Al Zarqawi will gravitate towards any conflict in order to promote their own ends. Those responsible for the invasion of Iraq have to bear responsibility for creating situations that enable these lunatics to prosper. Blair and Bush, I believe, do need to bear some of the responsibility for this attack.
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
|
|
|
|
Turretmuppet
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
396 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 10:59:22 AM
|
| Old Tone might have been a poodle, but it was the knee-jerk reaction of Bush to 9/11 that is responsible for the hell that is inflicted on the Iraqi people on a daily basis. America was utterly humiliated by 9/11 and someone had to pay....and we all are now.....with interest |
|
|
|
Simon Scarrow
Small mammal
Uruguay
777 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 10:59:24 AM
|
| The cobblers works like this, Delayer - the fact that Blair has wholly sided with US foreign policy and not hinted at one iota of disagreement with Israel's invasion of Lebanon has caused many people in the Arab world to consider Britain as part of problem, not the solution. Now, while I would agree this is not a sophisticated world view it doesn't have to be from a radical islamic point of view. The kind of young men and women who are motivated into this kind of attack tend not to do it for sophisticated reasons. Furthermore, the sending of our troops into to assist in clearing up other people's foreign policy mistakes tends to make them just as much a target as the soldiers of the power responsible for the cock-up. I find it difficult to believe that the foreign policy of Blair is not mainly responsible for the deaths in London last July and those of our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq and also, yes, of that poor tourist in Iraq. I don't know how he can sleep at night. Really I don't. |
|
|
|
Ankhsy
Homosapien
United Kingdom
7087 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 11:02:42 AM
|
He probably can because he is self-deluded. He really does believe he is right. So what difference is that sort of self-delusion from Al Zarqawi?
"It's hard to work in a group when you're omniscient."
|
|
|
|
The Delayer
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
216 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 2:02:25 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Simon Scarrow
The cobblers works like this, Delayer - the fact that Blair has wholly sided with US foreign policy and not hinted at one iota of disagreement with Israel's invasion of Lebanon has caused many people in the Arab world to consider Britain as part of problem, not the solution. Now, while I would agree this is not a sophisticated world view it doesn't have to be from a radical islamic point of view. The kind of young men and women who are motivated into this kind of attack tend not to do it for sophisticated reasons. Furthermore, the sending of our troops into to assist in clearing up other people's foreign policy mistakes tends to make them just as much a target as the soldiers of the power responsible for the cock-up. I find it difficult to believe that the foreign policy of Blair is not mainly responsible for the deaths in London last July and those of our soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq and also, yes, of that poor tourist in Iraq. I don't know how he can sleep at night. Really I don't.
So what your saying that Genoicide perpertrated by the Sudanese govt and Arab militia in places like Darfur are because of Iraq or that say the Bali bombing was because of Iraq.
What you do not seem to realise is that these people have been active and making attacks since the late 80's and fervetly belive that the only way to bring back the golden age is to kill or convert every NON Muslim.
Your own view of Lebenanon is also slightly simplistic since Hezbollah who started that war (and whose leader thinks Isreal is a good idea since all the jews gather in one place so they do not have to chase the world looking for them to kill) is a Shia group with heavy links to Iran and Arab's are of the Sunni sect and many an Arab govt and people was glad that Isreal was going in there and after them since they are worried about Iran.
Who do you think is doing the killing in Iraq Its sunni v Shia in a civil war.
If Iran makes a Nuke Bomb you can be guarranted that coutnries like Eygpt and Saudia Arabia will start trying to make one.
btw I could also point out that the UK is at fault since we have know for decades what these groups are like yet we allowed them to set up base here and bomb the rest of world as long as they did not hit the UK. France called it the Londonisation of the UK. Only since 7/7 has this really stopped and even then only reluctantly.
And most of the so called Muslim protests in this country are from people of the Sunni sect and who are upset that Saddams sunni govt and the Taliban's Pashtun rule have been overthrown.
And while I think Iraq was a disaster (for different reasons) Afghanistan was and is a just cause but let down cause the govt is not giving the men or materials to fight the Taliban. Its one we need to win cause if we lose Al-Quedia go back in simple as that but Blair and Brown who have starved the armed forces are trying to wage war on the cheap. |
|
|
|
Simon Scarrow
Small mammal
Uruguay
777 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 2:55:25 PM
|
It don't think it's reasonable to step aside from the debate to include such non sequiturs as Darfur. You are right to point out the longer term origins of radical islamic terrorism. But let's not forget the root of all of the present horrors lies in the partition of the middle east by western powers after the first world war, and in the Balfour declaration whereby an arbitrary decision was made to carve out a new state to hand over to Jewish settlers. The Palestine question is at the heart of this. The longer it remains unresolved the longer The War Against Terrorism (or TWAT as I shall refer to it) contines and the more violent and wide ranging it will become. Now in this context my point was that what Blair has done has made the situation worse. The decisions he took were not forced on him. He could have softened the impact of US policy on Iraq. He could have taken a firmer line over Israel. The fact that he did the opposite and greatly increased Britain's exposure to Islamic fundamentalist terrorism means that he shares responsibility for the events I mentioned.
As far as specifics go, I find it hard to see how Hezbollah are responsible for starting the war. If the IRA let off a bomb in Belfast, would that justify the UK invading Ireland and pounding Dublin into the Stone Age? Of course not.
I share your concern about Iran, but they would say to us that they were only playing catch up with Israel - a state with a long history of carrying out terrorist attacks against persons in other countries, as well as targets (civil and military) in other countries. I'm not sanctioning their bomb programme. It scares the willies out of me for the same reason as it does you I suspect. I'm saying that we have to walk in someone else's shoes occasionally and then negotiate a mutually acceptable solution. As far as Israel goes, I would suggest that the US, UK and EU sign a declaration binding them to guarantee Israel's 1948 boundaries in exchange for the restoration of all the land that Israel has siezed fom neighbouring states. The arabs I've spoken to seem to think that idea acceptable.
As for the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq I still maintain those two 'wars' are unwinnable. Several of my readers are out there now, in private security and the armed forces, and that's what they think. An outside power put up against an alien religion and culture can never win their hearts and minds. Like that famous saying about a town in the Vietnamese war, the only way we can 'save' Iraq and Afghanistan is by destroying them. That's what I was getting at in Eagle in the Sand - the intransigence of the situation. |
|
|
|
Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13892 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 3:04:24 PM
|
i agree with the thoughts on iraq and Afghanistan, I ahve read several books where it becomes clear that there is no way to win without killing every man woman and child in the place!
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
|
|
|
|
John Prigent
Homosapien
United Kingdom
8415 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 3:08:32 PM
|
I concur! Though I can't resist mentioning that Muslims would be likely to agree to anything that get them back the land they lost after they attacked Israel, since Islam tells them that lying to non-Muslims is not only acceptable but justified to get what they want. Whether they would honour a peace agreement is the vital question; if they didn't, US, UK and EU action to maintain the 1948 borders might simply prove a further excuse for terrorist attacks.
Cheers
John |
|
|
|
Parmenion
Homosapien
United Kingdom
13892 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 3:12:51 PM
|
i think the only peace agreement could be reached between muslim nations as john says anything else would have the potential to just be a lie.
but israel will never agree to anything the muslim nations concoct!
LASCIATE OGNE SPERANZA, VOI CH'INTRATE
|
|
|
|
The Delayer
Dinosaur
United Kingdom
216 Posts |
Posted - 06 September 2006 : 7:58:14 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Simon Scarrow
It don't think it's reasonable to step aside from the debate to include such non sequiturs as Darfur. You are right to point out the longer term origins of radical islamic terrorism. But let's not forget the root of all of the present horrors lies in the partition of the middle east by western powers after the first world war, and in the Balfour declaration whereby an arbitrary decision was made to carve out a new state to hand over to Jewish settlers. The Palestine question is at the heart of this. The longer it remains unresolved the longer The War Against Terrorism (or TWAT as I shall refer to it) contines and the more violent and wide ranging it will become. Now in this context my point was that what Blair has done has made the situation worse. The decisions he took were not forced on him. He could have softened the impact of US policy on Iraq. He could have taken a firmer line over Israel. The fact that he did the opposite and greatly increased Britain's exposure to Islamic fundamentalist terrorism means that he shares responsibility for the events I mentioned.
As far as specifics go, I find it hard to see how Hezbollah are responsible for starting the war. If the IRA let off a bomb in Belfast, would that justify the UK invading Ireland and pounding Dublin into the Stone Age? Of course not.
I share your concern about Iran, but they would say to us that they were only playing catch up with Israel - a state with a long history of carrying out terrorist attacks against persons in other countries, as well as targets (civil and military) in other countries. I'm not sanctioning their bomb programme. It scares the willies out of me for the same reason as it does you I suspect. I'm saying that we have to walk in someone else's shoes occasionally and then negotiate a mutually acceptable solution. As far as Israel goes, I would suggest that the US, UK and EU sign a declaration binding them to guarantee Israel's 1948 boundaries in exchange for the restoration of all the land that Israel has siezed fom neighbouring states. The arabs I've spoken to seem to think that idea acceptable.
As for the occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq I still maintain those two 'wars' are unwinnable. Several of my readers are out there now, in private security and the armed forces, and that's what they think. An outside power put up against an alien religion and culture can never win their hearts and minds. Like that famous saying about a town in the Vietnamese war, the only way we can 'save' Iraq and Afghanistan is by destroying them. That's what I was getting at in Eagle in the Sand - the intransigence of the situation.
Well Sudan has as much relevance as your view that Isreal is the reason probably more so since Arab colonialism and slavery has been far more harsher and ruinious to Africa than anything the west has done (still goes on to this day).
As for Isreal its a good excuse for Arab rulers opressing there own people's to say its all the jews fault to shy away from there own failing but thats simply not the case that its the cause of Al-Quedia Bin Laden did not declare his war until the first Gulf war when saudi arabia rejected his offer to fight Saddam in favour of the US that metaphorical slap in the face and the Wahhabbi creed that the west is decadant with things like democracy and freedom and women having rights and that if you get rid of these things and turn the world into a Taliban style state then the 13th century Caliphate will come back.
Besides Arab sates were offered a two state solution and rejected it at the time thinking they would win the war. They lost and so lost the territory. And yes Isreal is rough and not always gentle but you have to remember that they face Ahnilation if they lose not just defeat so its understandable.
btw I also know people who have worked and lived in the Middle East and know a few Arabs myself and in a country like Saudia Arabia they have TV but its just mainly reading verses of the Koran nothing else while No Muslims that work there live in enclaves and not allowed out. My own step sister worked in Oman for 6 months and as a woman was treated like dirt so yes I know. I have also worked under an Arab tough pyschotic old miser that he was.
As for Iran please if they get Nukes they could very well use them Not only do they have a fixation with death they are strong in there belief that a catclsymic world event will occur then the Mahdi will return and make the world Muslim. Starting a Nuke war could bring that about in there eyes and the country that inveted the religious Sucide Bomber as he is today will do it. Why do you think France issued a warning that they would Nuke anyone who nuked them it was for Iran's benifit.
As for Afghanistan we could pull out tomorrow but the Taliban would retake power and be stronger than ever and for the Afghan people and the world that would be a disaster. Iraq I think Iran has already won that war but there you go. Besides you overestimate Blairs pull in Washington and contribution. British troop size to the US was miniscule and very poorly equipped (we soon got the nickname the borrowers) and would have made little difference to an invasion they would have done anyway with or without us. Besides the failure was not the war which was over quite quick but the peace and reconstruction and not enough troops on the ground.
Leaving the IRA thing to a different thread but if we had stuck to the shoot to kill and did raids across the border it would have been over a lot sooner. The only reason the IRA did a ceasfire in the first place was because Loyalist gunmen were takiing more of them out than the otherway round and in the numbers game they are the minority community and sure to lose. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
British tourist shot in Jordan
